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firing order with photos

This is a discussion on firing order with photos within the Engine and Drivetrain (S30) forums, part of the 1st Generation Z (S30) category; Hopefully you guys can help me clarify things for me. Can you take a look at my photos and tell ...


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    Registered User MEZZZ's Avatar
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    Default firing order with photos

    Hopefully you guys can help me clarify things for me. Can you take a look at my photos and tell me that I have my dist. wires correct? I did a search and the photo I found is in the same order as mine but it looks to be like my wires (red Taylor) seem to be one off on the dist. cap. I looked in my Haynes manual and it seemed a bit confusing to me as far as the cylinder order and firing order. Also, if someone could let me know what this plug is for in the last phot I would appreciate it greatly. I took care in replacing the wires one at a time but just need some clarification. BTW, its a '77 280Z.
    Thanks


    Is this the correct order?


    My dist


    Photo I found online, please note the #1 seems to be off one compared to mine

    Plug I cannot find pictured anywhere
    thanks
    Last edited by MEZZZ; 06-11-2008 at 04:13 PM.
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    If you notice the location of the clip on the dist. caps #1 is on the same terminal in both photo's.
    The plug is the Cylinder Head Temp Sensor (CHTS) for the E.F.I.
    Tuck \o/

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    I did notice the location of the clip being similar, what threw me off a little was the location of the wire going to the coil being in between #1 and #5 and mine running between #5 and #3.
    Thanks for the heads up on the CHTS, I breezed thru the EFI bible last night trying to find something on this. I would think that should be connected but I will be damned if I can find any wire remotely close to it. I looked at the wiring diagram (not my forte by any stretch) and cant find the CHTS on it either.
    Any idea where on the wiring harness I can look for this? I am assuming it is part of the EFI wiring harness.
    1977 280Z
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    The CHTS is not used on a 77 or any S30. It's a ZX thing. And the photo of your distributor is correct. The picture you found seems to be rotated a little too far counter clockwise. It's set way to the retarded side and unless he has is distributor drive incorrectly mounted, his car will run like shi+ that way.
    Last edited by sblake01; 06-12-2008 at 04:04 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sblake01 View Post
    The CHTS is not used on a 77 or any S30. It's a ZX thing. And the photo of your distributor is correct. The picture you found seems to be rotated a little too far counter clockwise. It's set way to the retarded side and unless he has is distributor drive incorrectly mounted, his car will run like shi+ that way.
    Thanks Stephen, as always, your knowledge astounds me. It makes sense now that I saw nothing in the FSM about it. I did a Google search last night and found an article on it but it was a 280ZX. Now I am going to have to go out and check the numbers on the motor, I am assuming if it is a ZX thing that the head or entire motor has been swapped. I've never checked to see if the numbers matched.
    Thanks as well for the clarification of the pic. I did notice it was skewed compared to mine. I am learning as I go and it is very helpful to have this board and people like you to help educate me, I am a s-l-o-w learner though and still have a l-o-n-g way to go
    Last edited by MEZZZ; 06-12-2008 at 05:33 PM.
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    Well, I just got back from the garage and it seems I have an N42 block with a P79 head. That answers the question on the CHTS. Now, I just have to figure out why it is running rough and billowing black smoke when I accelerate. I pulled the A.F.M. tonight, boots are soft and crack free. Cleaned the connector and ground. Too late to mess with it anymore tonight, tomorrow's another day.
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    As long as you have the items that should be on a 77, i.e. thermotime switch, water temperature sensor, cold start valve, etc., and they're hooked up as per the 77 setup with good connections, everything should work. Which AFM do you have? The one from the 77 or the later one? The only reason I ask that is that the 77 would still have the contact points for the fuel pump and the ZX AFM wouldn't.
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    Stephen, I will look into wether the AFM is original. I bought this car as an "original, unrestored, unmolested car". The PO lied about everything else I have found up to this point so why not the AFM as well
    I did see the thermotine, cold start and water temp and they are all hooked up. I ended last night at pulling the connectors and giving them a good dose of contact cleaner. There never seems to be enough time to do what I want on this car though, between the demands of work and family and everything that goes along with it, it leaves very little time
    Have you ever wanted to vacation in beautiful CINCINNATI? I'll hook you up if you do...restaurants, nice hotel, beer, etc in exchange for a little garage time
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    One way to tell if you have a later than 1977 AFM is to look at the connection on it. If it appears to be missing one terminal it's a 78 or later, if it has all 6 of them it's a 75-77.
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    I kinda feel foolish asking this especially with all of Stephen's knowledge about Datsun's, (you ROCK! Stephen), but if your head has the CHTS on the side, as does my Maxima, do you have the proper 77 thermostat housing with the CHTS mounted in the front? It was hard to tell from your photos if all the connectors were present. Stephen can correct me if I'm wrong, but it should have the thermotime switch and the CHTS side by side in the front. And if not hooked up it would explain the black smoke and rough running condition.
    Dan

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    It's not a cylinder head temperature sensor on the water outlet. That's just a water temperature sensor. Different setups after 1979. There's actually no place to plug in a CHTS on a 280Z.
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    Thanks for the clarification again. I am very discouraged right now as I cant even get it to start now. It cranked last week and kicked over...seemed to idle okay but spewed black smoke during acceleration. It was running that way before I replaced the cap, rotor, plugs and wires. The plugs were pretty black but dry, not oily.
    After I replaced everything, it ran the same way. The past couple nights I took out the A.F.M. and checked the boots (soft and crack free), cleaned the connectors with electrical contact cleaner. Did the same to the "bullet" connectors for the thermotime and water temp switches. Put it back together and it cranks but wont kick.
    I am quickly feeling like I bit off more than I can chew with this project I bought and am considering giving up on her.I bought the car last Aug and got royally screwed on it (Ebay, I know). It needed cosmetic work, new paint and seats reupholstered. Was billed as a great running, rust free car.
    I gutted the interior to do the POR15, Dynamat treatement, and replac the carpets. Then I found a rot hole in the floor and that it had spread to the frame rail. I ordered a rail from Bad Dog last week and have contracted a welder to weld that in place and fix the floor. I have the POR15, Dynamat, new carpet, seats refoamed and recovered. I also bought a new steering wheel, stereo, speakers, antenna, shift boot, Speedhut guage faces, etc.
    I am really disgusted right now though with the process. I guess I will walk away from it for a bit
    1977 280Z
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    Quote Originally Posted by MEZZZ View Post
    I am really disgusted right now though with the process. I guess I will walk away from it for a bit
    Probably a good idea to take a breath of fresh air at this point. Don't forget about all of the progress that you have made thus far! Also, you really don't want to sell it when it's not running, so, get it back on the road at your convenience and take some time to enjoy it!
    Just for kicks (and based upon an error that I made once), I must ask 'are you sure that there is enough gas in the tank?'
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeesZ View Post
    Probably a good idea to take a breath of fresh air at this point. Don't forget about all of the progress that you have made thus far! Also, you really don't want to sell it when it's not running, so, get it back on the road at your convenience and take some time to enjoy it!
    Just for kicks (and based upon an error that I made once), I must ask 'are you sure that there is enough gas in the tank?'
    Thanks for the kind words...I was very frustrated yesterday to say the least. I cant sell the thing, I would lose way too much as I overpaid for it to begin with, plus shipping. I made up my mind just to suck it up and throw some good money after bad, it is a fairly straight car, I've seen much worse.
    And yes, I thought about the gas too, its reading about 1/8 tank. I actually put a gallon or so in it last week after replacing the fuel filter becasue that thought entered my head and she finally kicked over. I did the same thing yesterday with no luck. I am trying to keep the fuel down just in case I have to (dreaded thought), pull the tank.
    I'm off in a little bit to go buy a few diagnostic tools, fuel pressure guage, circuit tester. I will prevail eventually, or, find a mechanic to do it for me
    Last edited by MEZZZ; 06-15-2008 at 05:33 AM.
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    Thanks fo rthe clarification Stephen. Could it be a bad water temp sensor causing a "cold condition" creating an over rich condition? Dan.
    Dan

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    Thanks for the correction Stephen. MEZZ, I'm just stuck on the thought that if it's a later head and with all the PO misinformation about the car, does it have all the correct electrical connections and you still have not confirmed if you are using the 75-77 AFM or the later style. I'm assuming, and shame on me for that, that you are using the 75-77 AFM because you said your car was running. The reason is the fuel pump contacts are in the AFM for the 280z. The only things on these FI cars that I can think that would cause a rich condition would be low ignition voltage, incorrect or non-sufficiant data for the ECU e.g., the temp sensor. I concur with taking a breath and your time. The answers will come. They always do. Dan
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockr69 View Post
    Thanks for the correction Stephen. MEZZ, I'm just stuck on the thought that if it's a later head and with all the PO misinformation about the car, does it have all the correct electrical connections and you still have not confirmed if you are using the 75-77 AFM or the later style. I'm assuming, and shame on me for that, that you are using the 75-77 AFM because you said your car was running. The reason is the fuel pump contacts are in the AFM for the 280z. The only things on these FI cars that I can think that would cause a rich condition would be low ignition voltage, incorrect or non-sufficiant data for the ECU e.g., the temp sensor. I concur with taking a breath and your time. The answers will come. They always do. Dan
    Thanks Dan. I wnet out and looked at it, it is part #a-31-060-001 for L28, stamped on it. I did a google search with no results coming back and then I did a search on here and found an old post from Sblake01 with a drawing of the connector. Without pulling it back off, I remember that the pins were all the way across, none missing, so I am assuming it is for a 75-77.
    The car was running fine when I bought it last September, I drove it home from the shipping terminal, (about 20 miles), drove it about 25 the next day back and forth from work. I noticed the next day it seemed to be running a little off, then the next day it was missing badly. I had changed the oil and filter up to that point and I also did some cleaning of the engine bay. I did pull the AFM to clean the boots (the PO had spray painted the car, right through the hood vents and there was silver paint everywhere!). Not long after that the car started running worse.
    I am thinking maybe i forget a ground on it, so over the past week I removed it, cleaned the connectors and the ground wires very good. Checked the boots for cracks, put it all back together and now i cant get it to fire, it turns but thats it.
    I checked this morning for spark with a test light and all 6 plugs are getting juice. That leads me to think its a fuel issue. I couldnt hear the fuel pump "click" when I turn the key but have listened before for it when the car was running and never could. The injector wires have seen better days and need replacing, probably the injectors themselves while I am there.
    I am thinking of getting some starter fluid and seeing if I can get it to fire, what do you think? From there, as much as I hate to think about it, start replacing things until I get it, injector wires, injectors, fuel pump, wires for thermotime switch, pull the tank, etc
    My knowledge is limited, but with this board and all the great people on here I am learning. Spark, fuel, air...I know that much.
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    Registering 1/8th tank of gas showing on the instrument isn't very much. I don't know beans about EFI, but before replacing anything I would first make sure that fuel is actually flowing, and at the pressure needed. If your tank has crud in it, the inlet or the filter in the inlet side of the fuel pump could be clogged... perhaps the fuel pick-up in the tank has corroded through and you are sucking air? Start at the origin of the supply and work forward would be my suggestion. The advice often offered up at this site is to start with the simple things and eliminate them first before throwing fists full of money at it. (Again, I speak from having a similar experience where I approached things from the wrong end and wasted lots of time.)
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    Sounds like a good place to start again, but instead using staring fluid use some gas dribbled into the air filter. Starter fluid is so nasty! If she starts and runs for a few seconds you know your gettin closer. After re-reading your previous posts noting that your sure it has gas I'm starting to lean towards the dreaded gas tank gremlin. YOur car is showing the exact same symptoms as did mine, a 76, and because I'm poor I couldn't have my tank professionally refurbished, so I came up with my own method and since I've posted the procedure here before I won't bore anyone with the details, but you can p.m me and I'll fill you in. After all it seems like you've done everything else to eliminate it down to fuel supply. Hope I can help, Dan
    Dan

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    Thanks John and Dan for the insight and the encouragement. I had to play "family guy" yesterday since it was Fathers Day so I didnt really have much time to play around with it. I will do a search Dan on your gas tank fix, I did see that POR15 has a kit out to refurbish it, so if I have to go that route and pull it, I will be going it on my own. I too dont have a lot of $jack$ laying around for this project so I have to do everything I can think I can do and only as a last resort (i.e welding) hire a pro to do it.
    Maybe I'll try the little gas and see if she at least tries to catch.
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    I was able to get her to fire and run for a second here and there using starter fluid, spraying into the intake past the AFM. It would fire and then die, I could get her to fire just about every time doing this.
    I pulled the fuel line from the top of the brand new fuel filter and dropped the line into a jar and cranked it a few times and not a drop of fuel came out. I did have fuel come out when I disconnected the line from the line itself and from the metal line it runs into going to the fuel rail.
    Is it safe to assume that I either have an issue with my fuel pump, clogged line or (worse yet) gas tank? Should I see fuel squirting out when I crank it?
    I looked for a fuel pressure guage but all I found was labled "for most cars except Bosch and certain GM cars.
    Thanks!
    1977 280Z
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    You should definately see fuel spurting out under those conditions. At that point, it's unregulated and should fill that jar pretty quickly. The problem could also be in the circuit that controls the fuel pump. You can make your own fuel pressure gauge with a brass tee, an couple of 1/4" hose barbs for 5/16" hose, and a gauge availavle at most any hardware store and it'll cost much less than anything you can buy at an auto parts store. I've been using one like that for years.
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    Thanks Stephen, I will look into maing one up like you describe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sblake01 View Post
    You should definately see fuel spurting out under those conditions. At that point, it's unregulated and should fill that jar pretty quickly. The problem could also be in the circuit that controls the fuel pump. You can make your own fuel pressure gauge with a brass tee, an couple of 1/4" hose barbs for 5/16" hose, and a gauge availavle at most any hardware store and it'll cost much less than anything you can buy at an auto parts store. I've been using one like that for years.
    Okay Stephen, an update.
    I turned the key to the on position, cant hear the fuel pump running. I bought a multimeter a couple days ago and checked the green/black wires running to the pump from the bullet connectors that run into the old storage bin behind the passenger seat. I got no reading.
    I took a hot lead from the battery and touched the positive (green wire) terminal of the fuel pump and I could hear it running. I wnet back up to the engine bay and I can hear a slight "humming" from the dropping resistor located behind the windshield fluid tank. Then I took the lead off the battery, put it back on and after about 2 seconds I heard a hissing noise, like air leaking and I tracked it to the pressure regulator. If I slightly wiggle the pressure regulator, the hissing becomes a bit more pronounced. I looked at the lines and see no visible cracks, etc.
    I cranked the car about 4-5 times (I have it on a battery charger with a "jump start mode" and it is only good for 2-3 cranks before it needs to recharge again and could not get it to fire up. Evertime I tried to crank it, I hooked up the hot lead to the fuel pump as well.
    I will try again tomorrow using jumper cables vs. the charger as I wont have the constant interuptions waiting for a recharge of the battery. I was hoping that I could get it to crank once I discovered the fuel pump issue.
    One thing I read with interest tonight in the Haynes manual was the saftey belt interlock system, claiming it wont allow the car to start unless it is in neutral and the belt fastened. I saw the location of the overide switch but though "maybe if I fasten the belt
    Can you please give me direction from here? Could it be the relay? Not sure why I dont get power to the fuel pump r where to go from here, your advice (as well as others) is always appreciated.
    Last edited by MEZZZ; 06-18-2008 at 07:18 PM.
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    MEZZZ, you won't hear the fuel pump turn on with the key. It is wired into the AFM as a safety feature and is operated as air moves through the inlet flap of the AFM so in the case of an accident if the engine stalls the pump also shuts off to avoid fire. That is why your not getting any reading form your multi-meter. AS for the humming dropping resistor and the hissing pressure regulator maybe Stephen can answer those, however the humming resistors and the recharge cycle of your battery made me think of another possibility, is your battery/starter shot? And... is the wire connected to the battery containing the fusible link for the injectors hooked up properly and have you drained any gas from the tank to verify it has no junk in it. I hope I haven't added any worry to your plight, just trying to go through the body of evidence with you until a solution can be found. Keep on trucking you'll get it eventually.
    Dan

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    Dan,
    thanks for the info. No, I havent drained any gas from the tank, I will do that though and see what is in there. I will test the battery as well, it has an '07 date on it. If I use a trickle charger it will crank for awhile before dying and it will hold a charge for weeks, ie, interior light, headlights,etc if I dont crank it. Obviuosly it runs down quickly with the non starting issue.
    I replaced the battery cables not long after buying it and I carefully reconnected the wires going to the lonks just as I found them. I did have to splice in the connectors come to think of it so I will take a look at those as well tonight.
    1977 280Z
    I'm great at taking my Z apart, putting it back together has been a whole different story.

  27. #27
    Registered User MEZZZ's Avatar
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    Well, I looked at the wires running from the battery cables and all looks to be intact, tight/clean connection. I havent yet pulled the line from the gas tank but I did pull it from the fuel filter out of curiousity. It made a hissing sound as I pulled it, eveidence I suppose of some pressure and gas leaked from the metal tubes that run to the fuel rail. Just for the heck of it, I hot wired the fuel pump again and gas shot from the gas line, filling a 16 oz cup in about 3-4 seconds.
    I am looking into either buying or making a pressure gauge as Stephen suggested but am wondering if it will work if my pump is not engaging. Does the pump run in the start position to deliver fuel while cranking? I read in a search that it runs in the "run" position but my ignition has an "on" not "run".
    The car will crank endlessly when I jump from my other car, would the starter still be suspect this being the case?

    Sorry for the rediculous novice questions but I am learning from all this, if nothing else.
    Last edited by MEZZZ; 06-19-2008 at 05:03 PM.
    1977 280Z
    I'm great at taking my Z apart, putting it back together has been a whole different story.

  28. #28
    Former frequent poster sblake01's Avatar
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    From the 77 FSM:
    2004 Ford Ranger EDGE Supercab
    (@Moonpup: This one really is an EDGE!)
    2005 Pontaic GTO
    2010 Mercedes Benz C300 AMG Sportline (Wife's car)
    2014 Kia Rio LX (Wife's daily driver)
    Certified HVAC/MVAC Technician

  29. #29
    Registered User MEZZZ's Avatar
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    As always, thank you Stephen. I was reading the FSM a few minutes ago but havent gotten to this part yet. So, if the fuel pump runs when I am cranking, i.e. the ignition is on the run position, then I should be able to check my fuel pressure with a gauge?
    As I stated before, the pump runs with a lead from the battery and pumps quite a bit of fuel from the line past the new filter. So moving forward, I will have check the pressure from there. It is strange that the car was running fine, started basically with the flip of the key and now it just cranks. I have retraced my steps and I cannot see anything unplugged, corroded, etc.
    It starts for a second with starter fluid so I have to assume it is a fuel related problem at this point, or possibly no power to the injectors? Thanks again.
    1977 280Z
    I'm great at taking my Z apart, putting it back together has been a whole different story.

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