Car Collection Terminology and Standards

[2ManyZs]

Tell ya what Dave, I've got a couple complete L-24's sitting here with E-88 heads if you want to trade that L-28....:devious:

I know one is in pretty good shape as it came out of a daily driver a few years ago.

I'll even let ya keep the E-31 head since I've already got enough of them.

[dspillman]

Nate,

I to have made many trips to "not too badly rusted" cars,has many I'm sure.

Shipping wasn't too terribly expensive....My quote for open carrier was $575 terminal to terminal,$675 pickup at sellers location to terminal,$775 I think seller to buyer address...I went with a enclosed trailer due to the salt and all this time of year for around a grand...course they hit you up for all kinds of insurance,I bought comp/coll from my local carrier to be covered on the way here just in case.

There seem to be quite a few early zs out west...go west young man,and have a friend check it out first.....

david spillman

[Arizona240z]

I've been watching this saga from just about every view available and I've got to add my 2 cents in....

I probably would have done close to the same thing as David did if I were buying a car from a person who makes his living sell Z or Datsun stuff. I might have asked more questions (I don't know what he did ask). Most Datsun people are good, honest trust worthy people. I've seen some of the stuff TIR sells on eBay and have spent some time on his site. Personally, I think he is one of the ones that has high prices. That's just my opinon.

I will also say, that as a Z owner that will begin "refreshing" 1 possibly 2 (my current one is up for sale, sort of) 240Z's this year, TIR will get none of my money. Not because The engine wasn't original but because it was misrepresented and TIR made no effort (he came close to accusing David of lieing at one point) to correct the situation. I just hope that Chloe or one of the other vendors with a good reputation in our comminuty can get me what I need!

One daily driver that needs some TLC (if I don't sell) and one 71 series 1 that hasn't been on the road since 1991. I think I'll stay busy once I get started.

[gema]

I'm no lawyer, but I'm pretty sure you could take that to court. Claiming a product to be "All original" would indicate that NOTHING had been changed from the factory, with the exception of oil, gas, and replacement parts (Assuming, however, they are Genuine Nissan/Datsun parts). If the car arrives with changed parts, an engine block from a car made years later...I'd be upset. Even with the better performance the L28 offers, that still isn't what you paid for. You completed the transaction assured that you were purchasing a 240z consisting entirely of original parts, and that isn't what you were shipped. If it were me, I might talk to a lawyer, just to see what my options were. If for nothing else than to make it public and to let the rest of the Z community know that TIR not only makes false claims, but makes no real effort to rectify any wrongdoings and mishaps it performs.

Needless to say...my money's elsewhere.

[TomoHawk]

Originally posted by gema

to make it public and to let the rest of the Z community know that TIR not only makes false claims, but makes no real effort to rectify any wrongdoings and mishaps it performs.

That kind of statement sounds dangerous and might bring trouble from (TIR). It would be a good idea to talk to a lawyer to make sure YOU don't get any trouble from saying stuff in public...

...plus what gema just said.

[beandip]

I agree , it's time to give it a rest .

[EScanlon]

I'm going to jump into this with two hob-nailed boots in hopes of quashing this flagrant libeling of a good source of high quality and rare parts.

This is what I responded to the original posting on the mail list.

=======================

There's an old saying that says:

I won't guarantee a horse has all four legs on it. If the buyer is interested he'll check for himself.

If I adhere to that logic as a SELLER: I'm not being dishonest, but I'm not going to minimize MY chances of a sale to maximize the buyers!

As a BUYER: If I don't check it myself, either I get it checked, or ASSUME that it means what I think it means.

HAH!

I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure if you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

All of this belly-aching is simply BUYER'S REMORSE!

What's worse, is that he's proletizing AGAINST someone's reputation simply based on his disatisfaction. Whose fault is it that he assumed the best?

The car was NOT advertised as HAVING BEEN restored, but rather that it was a RESTORATION PROJECT!

That changes things in my opinion.

A restored vehicle is one that is putatively DONE.

A restoration project is a CAN OF WORMS just waiting for you to open it up.

A restored vehicle I would expect to be one that I could literally drive into the showroom of a closed room and only remove the dust that settled on it in transit.

A restoration project is first going to get a bath, and then a thorough inspection.

Do I expect to be able to drive off in my RESTORED vehicle? YES!

I'm bringing a trailer for the project.

The seller listed the vehicle as having been inspected. Great, did the buyer ask for a copy of the inspection report BEFORE bidding? If not, in my opinion, TOUGH BEANS.

The auction page shows a lot of activity at first, then stabilizes then a flurry of activity the last two days. Sounds like a hurried buy by someone. Whom we don't know because the bidder's ids are being protected.

In some movies we see people at an auction, and through inadvertent movement or expression find one poor guy the proud owner of a million dollar vase. Those situations are funny because of the accidental manner in which the guy gets stuck with the bum purchase. We sympathize with the buyer because thru no fault of his own he's stuck with it.

Then there are those movies when a bidder rushes into the auction room and energetically and adamantly insists on bidding at the last possible moment, outbidding prior bids and winning the auction. Then upon receipt of the merchandise, it turns out not to be what the buyer expected. Those situations are funny because we laugh at individuals who cause misfortune to fall on themselves. But we do NOT sympathize with the buyer, he's stuck with the purchase because of his own impetuousness.

To further exacerbate the situation, the buyer then maligns the seller in a public forum with the intent of defaming the seller.

Why? Because he failed to check if the horse had all four legs.

All of this reminds me of the movie "The Crying Game".

You've got a choice, accept it and keep it or reject and move on.

If this seems harsh and derogatory, it isn't meant to be. It's just a sad fact of life. There is no reason why the seller should conduct the sale with YOUR best interests in mind, that's your job. You're trying to get a good deal, so is he.

TANSTAAFL!!!

There

Ain't

No

Such

Thing

As

A

Free

Lunch

2¢

Enrique

========================

Then we start quibbling over the "definition" of terms in the hopes of further assasination of someone's reputation based on only ONE side of the story.

The ad stated quite explicitly:

Here's the URL:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2451605436

Or read below:

===========

1971 Datsun 240Z

Near Excellent Condition

Very Very Clean

You are bidding on a all Original 1971 Datsun 240Z. She is in very nice condition, never wrecked no rust, straight body except for a few parking lot dings. She was going to be my next show car project but I’ve been soo busy I can’t even keep up with my other projects. On a scale from 1 – 10 she would be rated a strong 8 – 8.5 Firm. Excellent running condition, very nice paint. This will and can be a jump in and drive everyday 240Z or with a very small investment she can be turned into that show Zcar that brings home the awards. Note: This 1971 (8/71) Datsun 240Z is also listed on my web site for sale, Seller reserves the right to end this auction at anytime.

Special Notes

New Dash, New Rear Deck Emblems, New wiper blade assemblies, New rear hatch support strut, Seats and Interior are in Excellent Condition, Door Panels are in Excellent Condition, No radio, Headlights are not working, Needs shift lever bushings, Needs a speedo cable.

Bonus Items Added To Auction

New Carpet Kit and 16pc Weather Stripping Kit. I will add those items to the close of this auction.

Please call (XXX) XXX-XXXX (edit) if you need more information

trust me this is a true find, so don’t pass her by

We are willing to trailer her free for the first 20 miles

there will be a 2.50 per mile charge after the first 20 miles (Only within California)

Please keep in mind this is a legal and binding contract

only serious collectors need to participate in bidding

=============

The starting bid was $2,000 but the ending price was $5,500. If you look at the bidding history you'll see that the bulk of the higher dollars happened in the last couple of days. That tells me someone was motivated to buy.

But enough of this, the buyer has already stated that although he was not pleased with the results, he still got a car that is considered a rarity. Additionally, it is in a condition that he isn't disatisfied. His intent to get a reduction of the sale price is natural, although HOW he approached it may have had a bigger bearing on the outcome than the request. But that is strictly conjecture on my part.

As far as I see it, the rest of you guys are just trying to railroad someone's reputation and hoping to incite a Lynch Mob mentality whereby everybody would refuse to do business with the seller.

The statement:

Claiming a product to be "All original" would indicate that NOTHING had been changed from the factory, with the exception of ...(snip)

Hmm, how's that work? Nothing can be changed EXCEPT....... And who decides what is an acceptable replacement? OEM parts only? Guess what, can't change the spark plugs. What about OEM and Year Specific? Good luck finding a non-illuminated rear window defrost switch, or a set of tail-light surrounds in the ORIGINAL matchbox striker finish Metallic Gray. (I'll bet that 80% of the cars had their tail-light surrounds painted within a year of new simply because when you waxed your car you could NEVER get the spots off the surround.) What about the Original Wiper Blade Holders that some of us have seen selling for as high as $150? Heck, most owners in the 70's went for the AAMCO quick blade refill which included the blade holder, there went your originality.

So what is, in fact, the TRUE definition of All Original? Simply put, it is that condition the car was in when it rolled off the assembly line. By the time you fill up the tank for the FIRST time, it's no longer ALL ORIGINAL.

Lastly, has anyone considered that the seller may in fact have been told by the person who sold it to him that it was "all original"? It may be that Troy was as surprised as the buyer to discover the engine didn't match.

The basic fact is this, the car was listed as a RESTORATION PROJECT, at that point he hasn't put in any of the work he is capable of. When he states that the car "will and can be " either a daily or a show car he further denotes that the car needs work.

Bottom line, enough on this thread.

Enrique

[26th-Z]

The author of this thread had no intention of getting into a discussion about who said what or sold to whom or anything at all about an eBay deal gone foul. The author of this thread wanted to discuss fine points of originality and technical aspects of what is considered amongst the most educated of American Zcar clubs as legitimate restoration proceedure and preservation.

THERE ARE PLENTY OF ALL ORIGINAL COLLECTOR CARS OUT THERE.

Original paint. Original tires. Original spark plugs. Original batteries. Original everything. I know of a Z that still has the plastic protective interior wrapping that was supposed to be removed by the dealer prior to sale. The author of this thread was completely surprised to discover that far too many don't know what "all original" means much less how something is restored.

The author of this thread is completely embarrassed by what has happend to this thread and wishes it would simply go away. Evidently, you guys don't wish to talk about specific finishes or preservative treatments or restoration techniques or anything that would resemble a intellectual conversation about collecting and maintaining fine automobiles. Evidently you simply don't know and wouldn't recognize, much less appreciate, an original car or what is involved to maintain or restore a car to an original state.

The author of this thread was hoping some people who actually judge cars in shows would comment on aspects of "over restoration" or the value of a certain "patina" to older cars. For instance, does anyone know what the yellow paint on undercarriage bolts is for, their proper location, or why some are painted red? Does anyone care? If the author of this thread goes through all the trouble to duplicate the finish of certain components, does he then have his car viewed equally to someone who had powdercoated over POR? Can any one of you tell the difference?

Thanks for allowing the author to get up and rant. PLEASE get off the eBay issue and let it settle. This site has members with some serious intelligent knowledge and experience to share. Perhaps this is a totally boring topic. So be it.

Thank you. All my love. And happy President's day.

[hls30.com]

First, I respect all of the first-rate work you have done to your car, and the validity of the information you have shared with the members of this club.

I do not believe anyone has disputed that more questions should have been asked, or that the buyer is ultimately responsible for his purchase.

If YOU asked TIR all of the questions you wanted to, and had them answered. Would YOU conclude that the car in question is an "all Original 1971 Datsun 240Z."?

If your answer is: "no", as I would expect. That means that even in your opinion, the seller falsified his discription. He lied. He and no-one else is responsible for that. His reputation is his responsibility, and his verifiable and conscious actions are what has hurt his reputation. He put the first sentance in his ad. He knew it wasn't true. He refused to stand behind it. He defamed his own charactor by these facts.

If your answer is yes, what is your Ebay ID? I do not want to risk have this problem with a listing of yours.

Will

[TomoHawk]

How about this....

Can you actually get a battery to last for 30 YEARS??

From what I seen & read in the literature, they're only supposed to last up to 7 or 8 years, with normal maintenence, and that's for the lastest stuff! I replaced the battery in my '97 Escort last summer when it finally went bad. Mine's a driveway car, I go 700-800 miles /month with longer trips on the weekends, and regular maintenence/service. Escept for the seat cushions & some petina on the valve cover, it looks like NEW.

I don't think you can get tires to last for 30 years, either. Not unless you take the wheels off & seal them in a bag. Not something for your average car owner.

Paint- I'll believe that this could be new after 30 years. Same with the interior, with EXTREME care.

I doubt you could claim your (30 yr. old) car (or ANY car) is 100% ORIGINAL unless you transported it through time to the future, or some other miracle.

OK, Chris?

[sblake01]

ENOUGH!!!!!!

[beandip]

I agree enough is enough this is stupid. Frankly an over restored car Z or any other car, that is a garage or trailer queen is a sad comintary of someone that has both too much money and too little of a life. If it is in collection like in the Smithsonian this is annother matter. For a person like J. Leno , and others like him , it's like collecting baseball cards. And just a fun thing, but in his case he drives his cars and cycles so in my mind does not fall into the garage queen slot. To get all twiterpated over this definition of "IS " has become boring. NUF SAID