Car Collection Terminology and Standards

[sblake01]

Originally posted by sblake01

ENOUGH!!!!!!

This thread started out very different from what it has become. Enough vendor bashing! I've had my dealings with TIR and my opinion is based on that: my own experiences. I don't really care what someone else has to say about it especially when all we know is his side of the story. I haven't experienced this type of thing with Troy and like it was said before, it's unfair to assasinate his character based on one man's opinion. There was probablly a lot of pushing and shoving and the original issue was lost between them causing it to escalate to what it has become. I doubt if many of you outside of the area really do that much businees with him anyway. So, to the one who wants to 'keep him away from my wallet', he probably wasn't buying anything from him anyway. So let's let this stop. Where is the 'no vendor bashing' policy?

[EScanlon]

Stephen you are absolutely right.

Each person must base their decisions on their own criteria.

My main point in ranting was to point out the biased and one-sided viewpoint of that whole mess. If Troy were to post his side, it may well be such that the whole matter becomes trivial.

Wills:

I purposely avoided answering your questions because in my opinion all it would do would be to fan the flames.

I will ignore the implied slur regarding my person, with regards to the description of any item I may sell on e-bay, based on your assumption as to what I might or might not conclude.

For the record, my e-bay id is basically the same as my log-on here. I will assure you that any item I would put on e-bay would be an item that you would be upset if you were to miss out on the bidding based on your prejudice.

You might consider posting YOUR e-bay ID and allow all the vendors that frequent this site to know you by. That way, they may opt to not let you bid, to eliminate a potentially bad transaction. Then again, that may be reason enough for you to hide behind your anonimity.

What I construe an advertising phrase to mean and what someone else chooses to understand is what makes lawyers happy. My choice to ask further questions or not is based on the simple premise of Caveat Emptor. Once I've gotten to know a seller, I may trust, but I would still verify. I don't expect anyone to effect their business with MY interests in mind.

26th Z / Chris:

I am sorry to have participated in railroading your post away from what you intended.

I agree, I also would like to see an intelligent discussion as to what constitues originality. That term and "Classic" are items that this thread did point out are not only subjective, but perhaps undefineable without a lengthy discussion.

Unfortunately, you can't please everyone.

2¢

Enrique

[Mike]

Guys, I really don't want to start cracking bones again. I've done it in the past and it really sucks. Can I trust that we will stay away from personal slander and continue discuss issues on a professional level?

As a rule of thumb, if you are suffering from emotional discomfort while typing your message.... WALK AWAY. Come back to the post at a later date.

I have a few members that I've 'restricted' due to topics like this in the past. They immediately took notice when this post came up.

Here's my rule. Do not torment each other with slander. Keep all posts Z-related.

Thanks.

-- MIke

[hls30.com]

My apologies go out specifically to Enrique Scanlon and any members that I have offended with my personal opinion.

William Stokes

Ebay ID: Connatser

[dspillman]

Enrique,

Describing the varying degrees of condition of a product is subjective. Condition is a relative term, The condition of a product will be descibed by 10 people in 10 different ways...if in enough detail and there is unmandated terminology available. This is the case in most advertisements. Buyer beware......Yes,we agree. I think.

Varying degrees of "original" exist as well and to most somewhat subjective.

.......

Edit.....

Edit....

Edit.....

Edit....

Editing post offered while in discomfort

wanting that dead horse to quit kicking.......:sick:

seriously

Actual name,

david spillman....

PS

ebay ID: volgolf153q...for those sellers that believe I'm an unreasonable customer

[EScanlon]

Thank you David!

I believe that is the main reason that Chris offered up this post, to discuss and define, amongst us Z-Car owners and lovers those terms that have been mis-understood, vague and open to personal interpretation.

To address the unfortunate incident on a first person basis. I have done business with Troy and through an error of MINE, I bought a few emblems that were the wrong year for my car. I was not aware of subtle differences between the Script "Datsun" on the hatch. Could his ad have been clearer? Yes. But then again, I should have done my homework. When I contacted Troy, he not only swapped the emblem out, but he basically let me have it for shipping costs and the small difference between what I paid for at auction and what he would have BEGUN his listing for and not for what it COULD HAVE been.

Troy is a human being like the rest of us, and he's also learning much of this "electronic market-place" the same way we are. Trial and error. Heck, I know business TODAY that still don't use computers to effect business, and others that use word-processing programs to write up invoices and orders. So, in that respect I try to cut people as much slack as I can.

In any transaction I do my darndest to answer any questions I may have that in my opinion would affect the value of that item. Have I gotten burnt? Yup. Enough times that I've gotten my wife mad at me for .... not asking enough questions. My bad, no argument.

David, I apologize to you for having made such a big deal. It was not my intent to direct any comment at you personally, but rather to those actions that even I am guillty of. And, being human and older, I was hoping to make it obvious to those members that had not yet been burnt by that type of transaction that they had to look out for themselves.

Wiliams:

No apology is necessary as I did not take offense.

To address the basic question in your post about the content of an ad and what I might construe, let me put it this way: I NEVER assume that the description given is EXACTLY as the item is. That is something that I've learned in my 25+ years of being in sales.

Product literature points out the good points, and subtly obfuscates or omits the bad. Sales people play on your emotions and eagerness to buy. Too many times I've been told what I want to hear, but not what they intend to do. Thankfully, I've taken enough knocks that I attempt to get things in writing. You'd be surprised how many times I've had salespeople do a quick shuffle and tap toe to get out of what they had been saying before.

The turning point for me came about when I stopped trying to get the better end of a deal and just ensured that I got everything I was promised. Like I said before, I trust BUT I verify.

To the rest of the membership that may read this:

I encourage us all to now contribute in order to return this post to it's original intent.

There are many terms that we take for granted and presume / assume that they mean the same thing to all. This discussion highlights this problem amongst our community like a bold yellow highlighter.

So, in hopes that we can again attempt at defining "original", I would like to offer a different term that would better describe what most people want original to mean; NON-MODIFIED.

By inverse relation, a MODIFIED vehicle would be such that changes had been effected to it that rendered it different than the way it was delivered by the factory. This would include changes due to ABNORMAL repairs, such as replacing the transmission, engine, or other items. Items such as oil, gas, wiper blades, spark-plugs and tires would not be considered modifications as those items are required for regular periodic maintenance required to keep a vehicle running.

Granted, the Concours folks would differ. But I think we can agree that the terminology for a Concours vehicle is not that that would be applied to a car that is driven and enjoyed. I am not saying that Concours folks do not drive and enjoy their cars, but rather that where a Concours user would fret and worry over the brand of spark plug used, an owner of a driver would not.

To add to this discussion, and to differ from Modified above, I also offer the term: CUSTOMIZED.

Customization, in my opinion means that the vehicle has had changes effected to it that noticeably change the non-modified appearance of the car as delivered by the dealer. Whether that customization is to improve performance or functionality is not the issue, but rather that the vehicle has been changed.

In my case, I have a 73 Heater Control Panel...in a 71. I made that change because the original HCP is not illuminated where the 73 is. Swapping out the square top carbs in favor of the round tops. Some might call this a modification, and here's where we enter the realm of discussion......

Enrique Scanlon

[Mike]

Actually, I don't think it's a good idea to go back and edit posts unless they are extremely bad. It's better to leave it alone and post a reply. Thanks for the explainations guys... It's tough being the site-moderator sometimes.

-- Mikey

[26th-Z]

Mike,

I wonder if I should start a new thread and I'll leave that up to your discreation, but to build on what Enrique has just contributed...

There certainly are a lot of variations to the theme! Take a look at www.volocars.com. Click on the news and events tab and then select the Shelby Mustang announcement. The Volo Museum is displaying a 1967 Shelby Cobra GT 500 convertible and it is a prototype car - not a production car. As Ford ordered all of the prototype Shelbys destroyed, this is the only surviving prototype. The story appears in Old Cars Weekly News and says that the car was recovered by Ford in 1968 after being reported stolen, refitted with 1968 parts and sold as a used Shelby. Through intense research (four years), the car has been restored to it's "original state". Carroll has authenticated it and you can be certain that the documentation and actual restoration was done by professionals.

So here is a $1 million used car involving the terms "rare", "all original", "as original", "like original", "restored original", and "original state". I would imagine the car has been completely disassembled and that very little of the 1967 rubber parts, vinyl parts, and paint remain. However, professional restoration to this degree would dictate authentic materials and manufacturing techniques. With a ton of research and documentation to back it up!

Comments?

[dspillman]

Erique,

How ironic, I spent the last hour of light yesterday in a local JY looking for a early hcp heater control panel with chrome trim intact....Wasn't completely satisfied with my find, so I may seriously consider using the later HCP if for no other reason, availability.

I respectfully make a motion to move relevent posts to and rename thread to,as Car Collection Terminology, description standards, or something similar....

david

[Zrush]

The previous thread from 26th-Z is where the Factory Restored Z Program falls under. I'm sure all is true except for the $1,000,000.00 price.

Vicky

[TomoHawk]

I saw a program called "Barrett-Jackson Car Search" today and Mr. Jackson was critiquing some Mustangs. He concluded the first was a "#3 driver," and the other was a "#2 driver."

Any insight or explanation?

I think this kind of question is what this topic is about...

thx.

[26th-Z]

Yes TomoHawk,

These guys look at cars so often, they have their own lingo to describe an overall condition or impression of any particular car. If we were collecting coins, for example, we would be using grading standards to describe the condition, such as MS, VS and further substandards like MS-60, MS-65. In our car world, I see "daily driver", 50/50 rule, and the descriptions you just refered to.

And it is all subjective!

I just read an article in AutoWeek about a $57,000 Plymouth 'Cuda (1971) that the writer thought should have been priced around $30,000 sighting such things as door dings and chips in the original paint. (Not to mention the engine had been changed - original for the car, but not THE original engine) He expressed; "Better than a driver, but not stunning".

What's the difference between a #2 driver and a #3 driver? Opinion, most likely. Educated, experienced opinion. Mr. Jackson's expertise is from looking at thousands of cars and the show discusses the differences in an educational format - applying certain terms to describe the differences, likes and dislikes he sees in a car. The show is interesting because they show a bunch of cars and educational because they use a set description to convey their opinion.

The one sentence I though most pertinent to the AutoWeek article was; "But the market speaks with it's wallet".