For Interest Only (Toyota 2000GT)

[sblake01]

No, Carl, it's not just you. I sat in the one that Toyota bought out to last year's Japanese Classic Car Show. It was cramped, as you said, but nice considering the period it was built in. I found it to be asthetically interesting but not anything I would like to own but then again, I drive them rather than collect them and this car wouldn't work for me at any price. Sometimes too much is made of the low production number thing. That alone doesn't make a car valuable in my estimation. Not nearly in the same catagory but my daily driver is a 1979 Datsun 810 2dr. Not many of them were made either but no one cares today except for the handful of us that own them.

[rdefabri]

I hate to dissent a little - the Toyota is STUNNING. A little less harmonious than an E-Type or contemporary Ferrari, but a nice looking car IMHO.

Is it worth $250K? NO, and that I agree with - especially when compared to the legendary Ferrari Daytona, which is better looking, has much better performance, almost as exclusive, etc. This is the same question/comment I made with respect to the mid-year Corvette coupes to E-Type coupes - the Corvette was made in much higher quantities, yet today is worth double the E-Type. There are obvious reasons for that, especially since many of the boomers that grew up wanting one are buying now, essentially ballooning the price. The E-Type convertible was the more desirable "E", so that's the car that's in higher demand and is quite similar priced to a mid-years 'Vette.

I would submit that folks like Keith Martin (who we have discussed before) and those like him are part of this. They tend to gush over cars like the 2000GT and can manipulate markets. In addition, not unlike in pro sports, there are some bidders that will pay whatever it takes to get an asset, effectively resetting the price expectation in the market.

As an example, the recent Barrett-Jackson auction with the Olds F-88 Concept generated $3M (!!!). A rare and beautiful car indeed, but $3M? I don't see it, but that was the "going rate". Ferraris in the 80s were much the same.

The question is - will the 2000GT bubble ever "burst"? I doubt it, given that most of the surviving examples are likely in good shape. It may mean good news for our Z's though, as invariably you can't talk 2000GT without at least a MENTION of the 240Z.

Time will tell, but if ANYONE sees one of these for $50K, let me know - I'd be interested in purchasing it

[HS30-H]

A few observations:

The car in question ( from 26th-Z's post ) was sold by Christie's at their Le Mans Classic sale on July 8th. This was of course in France, and the sale price ( inc. buyers premium ) was 176,250 Euros.

Let us remember that we are talking about a World market for these cars nowadays. Desirability means that the cars will cross continents to reach their buyers. The currency exchange rates will make certain cars look like a bargain to some, and extremely expensive to others. Let's not forget that.

Japan takes the lead in prices for certain old Japanese cars, and this will tend to pull up prices of similar vehicles in other territories. Unsurprisingly, many of the Toyota 2000GTs originally delivered to Europe have been making their way back to Japan over the last 20 years or so. The kind of people that are buying them in Japan are - in many cases - the type that could be compared to 'Baby Boomers' elsewhere. They might have fallen in love with the Toyota 2000GT in their youth, and now have the funds to buy one. They can justify their purchase by calling it an "investment". I know a couple of people in Japan who have bought them, and consider them to be good value for money as far as old cars go. Don't forget that the Japanese market has seen certain S30-series Z cars changing hands for the equivalent of over $100,000 US in the last couple of years. Rarity and desirability are key words here.

I think the high Japanese market values for RHD Toyota 2000GTs are certainly pulling the value of LHD versions up with them. There's never going to be a huge chasm between them, as there were never enough cars built.

But a straight comparison between a Toyota 2000GT and an S30-series Z? I don't see how a straight comparison is relevant to any discussion of market value on each. I'm sorry, but in terms of looks alone the Toyota makes the S30-series Z look very conservative. Having driven one ( an RHD Japanese-market version ), I can tell you that the Toyota was a beautifully balanced package that gave a tangible sense of occasion. It felt well engineered and very nicely put together. Driving it was an event. The only S30-series Zs that gave me anything like that feeling have been a pair of 432s. The standard L-series engined Z was like a saloon car in drag by comparison........

This discussion about 'market value' reminds me of property prices here in London. The house that I lived in until recently ( not mine - I just rented part of it, I hasten to add ) has just been put on the market at £2,750,000 STG. My former landlord bought it less than ten years ago for no more than £500,000 STG. It is a terraced Georgian ( 1799 ) townhouse in a central London street, with no parking place or garage, and almost no garden to speak of. Does it offer value for money when judged purely on its status as bricks and mortar, or as a dwelling? I think the answer is no! That 2.75 million could buy me ten times as much space and luxury elsewhere.

Desirability and exclusivity are what drives the market for such properties, and the same thing is true with the Toyota 2000GT. That kind of money is chump change to some people.

Alan T.

[daddz]

Carl,

I think the value discussion of Toyota's 2000GT should involve some mention of the history of the motorcar industry as it relates to Japan and Japanese history as well. Following WWII and the myriad reforms that were undertaken in Japan which spilled into the 1960's (the country's plan was to increase the economic well being of all citizens as well as that of the country--very simplified explanantion here) Japan found itself able and willing to challenge itself in all fields of endeavour. Another key point to make is that Japan did not have to budget for its own military which left alot of potential on the table in terms of investment. So what am I trying to say? It is because of this pot of circumstance that a car such as the Toyota 2000GT should arise from a country that twenty years previous was in shambles.

The car is as much a symbol of fine motoring as it is to a lesser extent a symbol of national pride. Think of America's fascination with the Ford Mustang (40 years and counting--hell I even own one of these things) and it begins to make sense--at least to me. Take for example: a run of the mill Mustang circa 1966--it is taken from the assebmbly line with black paint and sent off to Shelby and then it is sent off to hertz and becomes a lowly and abused rental car the GT350H. Five years ago you could have bought this for about $50 to $65k and now they are approaching $200k!

Getting back to my point the Toyota 2000GT is valuable for a number of reasons to a wide swath of people. I just wonder when a replica in the idea of the Superformance Cobra Daytona Coupe is going to appear?

Toyota maybe the most conservative Japanese automaker but when the giant takes a step it will be a good value for money proposition. Think of all the 200k Toyota MR2's that run around these days. My own '87 Supra is another example--great build quality from the slightly thicker sheetmetal as compared to my '86 300ZX and an absolute refusal to rust like a Nissan.

Rich,

I agree with you 100% in regards to the values of the Jaguar E-type FHC. I think it is a prettier shape than the roadster and eminently more usable. I just hope the value chasm remains until I snatch one up!

Alan,

I think you have struck a fine point in regards to the comparison of a 240Z and the 2000GT. The Datsun took a formula and "cheapened" or "diluted" it to a price point that was sure to at least recoup Nissan's investment in tooling and such. A sportscar cobbled together out of saloon parts--sort of like British Leyland?

[rdefabri]

If the Toyota driving experience was an event, then that certainly supports the aura around this car.

As far as the money being chump change, you are correct. If someone wants something and money is not an object, they will get it. Since you are on the other side of the pond, Malcolm Glazer's takeover of Man U. ran $1.5B (not a typo). I know Man U. is a storied franchise, but $1.5B is a HUGE sum for ANY franchise (including the NY Yankees). To Glazer, it was nothing.

[daddz]

Rich,

you are so right and it's only a football team (soccer to us here in 'states) but just look at the sport of sailing and Ten Turner's famous run for the America's Cup. It all comes down to scalability.

[rdefabri]

Bob - thx. I also agree with your comments on the Japanese auto industry. As a Product Manager (essentially a Marketing function), I am passionate about realization of a concept into a tangible product or service.

Japan, after the war, was assisted by a team of people that included a guy named W. Edwards Deming - Deming was a proponent of something called TQM - total quality management, which was to assist corporations improve product testing, design, services, sales, etc.

His principles were not widely adopted in the US, but he was a MAJOR contributor to the Japanese manufacturing machine. Toyota, Honda, and Nissan (amongst others that include Matsushita/Panasonic, Sony, etc) applied his principles and you can see that in the quality of their product against those of other countries. If you are interested, look him up - in my profession, he is a legend, but it's amazing how few American companies adhere to his principles (and I've worked for GE, Dow Jones, Lucent, and a few others).

To that end, that the success of Toyota - a giant - can be traced to humble origins such as the 2000GT seems to strike a chord with me. I see the 2000GT as a risky, bold move - something perhaps Toyota of 2006 would never do. That in and of itself seems to make the car "worth" more in my mind. There is an intangible here. If this same car were called the "Opel GT-R" or "Jag E-Type vII", maybe it's not the same. I am curious what a similar Prince badged car might be worth stateside (specifically one of the race vehicles like the R380).

It is for this reason that I think the 240Z is undervalued and will see it's due. The car was a risky move that helped create a giant industry for Japan. Not too many people will spend the same premium for a Triumph or MG, so the history behind the car and company must be a contributing factor.

Sorry to be long winded, this is quite a stimulating conversation.

[daddz]

Rich,

It seems as though this conversation was to happen sooner or later. It just so happens that as a requirement of my major (finance) I am studying a 300 level marketing class this semester and that coupled to running through Japanese history at a breakneck pace last semester (3 books, 1 visiting professor, and about 200-400 pp of reading for 14 weeks) I am bound to see Deming's name yet again. I saw his name in a 400 level project management class as well as a 300 level information systems class last semester.

I see a trend here in both of your seections of classic automobiles-- finding and seeking undervalued classics. I think it is fun to see the trends in the classic car hobby. As a brief sidebar I was into Mazda RX-7's about ten years ago for daily drivers and they had reached a trough in terms of values and just recently Hemmings did an article on the SA bodied RX-7 GSL-SE (I owned an '85) and they pegged the value a bit too low. As evidenced recently on an ebay (not the bible) transaction where a 29k original unmolested example with complete records made better than $8,000! Like Z's a stock original is the rarest of the breed. I believe another tough find would a stock Honda CRX Si --try to find one with less than 50k with paperwork. As the funky little Honda S600 becomes more rare the values are sure to rise on this little gem. It would be neat to see this parked next to an Honda S200 in a garage?

[MikeW]

Rich,

you are so right and it's only a football team (soccer to us here in 'states) but just look at the sport of sailing and Ten Turner's famous run for the America's Cup. It all comes down to scalability.

Ted's victory with Courageous was incredibly inexpensive compared to more recent America's cup races where the syndicates build multiple yachts out of carbon fiber and other advanced materials. Also, money alone wouldn't have been enough to win. He was actually a good skipper. I agree that in recent years it's been more about the money. Shoot, the current champion is from Switzerland

As an aside, I got to crew aboard Dennis Conner's Stars & Stripes (USA-55) a couple of years ago that he used to win the cup back from Australia in 1987 before losing it again.

[rdefabri]

Bob - yes, I think we are kindred spirits there. I have really only a few criteria when selecting a "classic":

1) It has to be historically "significant" - I put this in quotes because that's subjective, but important to me. It's why a Dino Ferrari is worth 2-3 x a Ferrari 308 (although I am not quite old enough to remember the Dino, I am old enough to remember the aftermath - it was lauded for designed, panned for having a "FIAT" engine)

2) It has to have performance that was respectable compared to it's contemporaries - it's what separates a 240Z from an Opel GT or Triumph GT6

3) It has to be a good value - again, that's a subjective rating depending on the buyer (see 2000GTs), but the 240Z is a GREAT value IMHO. So is the E-Type coupe. There's a ton more, you know we've had these discussions. My list is somewhat endless...

As far as school, I am about 16 years out of college, but I loved my Deming study. As a Product Manager in the Technology field, his principles are so relevant, it hurts. In discussing him, I long to go back and re-read some of the texts I kept. I was actually thinking of writing a Product Management book that would be keeping with the Deming philosophy, certainly that of companies managing to a bottom line as opposed to the intangibles. I always respected Apple for this - their products have a "je ne sais quois" that differentiates them from the mainstream.

I think we mentioned a few posts ago - the 350Z was, in my mind, a miss in terms of design. I would have prefered a little more retro in it. I do stil dig the newer Jaguar designs, especially the saloons - they look like they old cars.

My only problem is I don't have enough money to have the stable I want. I am still fairly young, but with 2 young'uns, it will be hard. I DID snap up the Z and E since I knew appreciation was imminent and I wanted in. Unfortunately, there are quite a few more of these undervalued cars I would like to acquire!!!

[rdefabri]

Dennis Conner was a gamer though! Interesting story - I worked with a woman that was part of the all-woman America's Cup effort. It was kind of neat to see the pics and hear the stories of her experience.

Ok, pulling the conversation back - when is there going to be an awesome 2000GT replica built? We already have 2 buyers...heck, I was ready to buy a Beck 550 Spyder, but I'd take this one instead!

[daddz]

Rich,

If you have a chance The Reckoning by David Halberstam (circa 1986?) is certainly a great book and is told in an informal manner and pits the story of Nissan and Ford.

Bon chance if you decide to go ahead with your project management book. That is a large personal undertaking/personal journey.

I too have long admired the Beck 550 Spyder for staying so closely to the original. In that idiom I would also love to have a chance to drive or own a Lotus Super 7 replica. I heard of a rumor that Yoshikawa-san was attempting to get a series of aluminum 2000GT bodies produced. Let your mind ponder that one for a moment.

I also like your criteria and at various times have employed a few of them though not as often as I should have. Restraint is a key word for someone like myself.

MikeW,

A friend of mine would love to talk to you about your experiences. I tend to be a monohull type of guy but he is an extremist and I am slowly being converted to multihulls. His love of the Ian Farrier designed trimarans have inspired me to take a few test rides or demo sails as it were. His new F-22R promises to be a success and lord knows those boats hold their value.

I am lucky enough to live close to Annapolis where there is night racing three or four times a week depending upon the time of year and there are some attractive females that love to sail as well. My friend has raced in the Pensacola Beach area and there is alot of interest in the Worrell 1000 which is a gruelling race to say the least.

(boy has this thread covered alot of ground?)

At least we seek to provide value on many layers or something like that.:knockedou