April Fool?

[sblake01]

That's all great stuff, Alan! I am learning the truth about these cars by reading this thread. Each email I have received from VR has been laden with flimsy excuses. They've never actully admitted to me that their car is the wrong car. They told me that some of the cars were LHD which is true but when I told them that this one wasn't the emails from them stopped coming. Maybe someday someone will write a book which will dispell all of the myths that surround not only the Z but Datsuns in general.

[Alfadog]

Awesome pictures Alan, I would love to see one of the old beauties in Japan one day... or even a replica would be good! Thanks for sharing!

[26th-Z]

Alan,

The car in the B/W pictures shows no rubber molding on the front bumpers and the uprights are not dented. The color photographs of the car at Zama show the moldings and dents. Any explanation? Was the car retired after Monte Carlo or does it's history go on?

[TomoHawk]

After reading the article (thanks Chris), I'm surprised to NOT hear someone from VRJ say that since the cars had numerous body cchanges/replacements, reg. plates swtiched, etc., that you can't just make a claim about any car to be this or that.

You'd need to go deeper and check the chassis number, etc., before you can be totally certain which "car" is which.

[HS30-H]

Originally posted by sblake01

.............They told me that some of the cars were LHD which is true but when I told them that this one wasn't the emails from them stopped coming.......

No Stephen, let's get this straight. The car that was issued with the carnet registration number "TKS 33 SA 4150" ( the car that Aaltonen & Todt crewed to a 3rd place finish on the 1972 Monte Carlo Rally ) was LHD. It had an "HLS30" VIN prefix.

[HS30-H]

Originally posted by 26th-Z

Alan,

The car in the B/W pictures shows no rubber molding on the front bumpers and the uprights are not dented. The color photographs of the car at Zama show the moldings and dents. Any explanation? Was the car retired after Monte Carlo or does it's history go on?

First of all, the B/W pictures of the car during the event are just that; during the event. During a rally, the car could be totally destroyed on the next corner.........

"TKS 33 SA 4150" only ever competed in the 1972 Monte Carlo Rally. After that it went back to Japan.

The B/W picture of the award ceremony shows the car as it appeared at the end of the rally - but you will notice that the mechanics have tidied it up, washed it, and put fresh wheels and studded tyres on. The crew have had a bit of a brush up too. I think the awards ceremony took place the day after the last stage in Monaco. You can however see that there are no corner rubbers on the front bumper....

The "Monte Carlo" bumper ( sometimes called the "drop" bumper ) was a newly homologated part for the 1972 Monte, and it solved the problems of having the spot lamps stuck out in front of the bonnet, which was always vulnerable on the snow-banked corners of the Monte. The bumper that is on the car now may well have been 'beautified' over the last 30 years in Japan. I can't say for sure whether the bumper is the one that the car finished the rally with, or whether it is a substitute. I rather suspect that the rubbers are a later addition by some well-meaning but not entirely historically-minded staff member. The car went on display at the Japanese Motor Show after its return, and anything could have happened.

With the Works rally cars, there are many instances of parts being 'borrowed' from one car and put onto another and some parts were in constant rotation. In fact, the original engine and transmission of "TKS 33 SA 4150" was taken out of the car when it went back to Japan, and a 'dummy' engine ( in fact, an L20 with a Y70 head! ) was installed in its place. The ancillaries are correct, but the current engine and transmission are not.......

The Works rally effort for the 240Z and 260Z was always stretched to the limit financially, and they tried to waste as little as possible. Being based so far from 'home' was also a problem. They could airfreight parts out of Japan when needed in an emergency, but the lines of communication were never so easy as they are today. These were the days before luxuries like FedEx next-day deliveries and e-mail communications. They had to rely on the new fangled Telex system.....

Nobody should be surprised that some items have gone missing from the three Works cars that now reside at Zama. They have pretty much been pushed from pillar to post over the last 30 or so years - with no permanent museum slot or display plan. I know many people who have ( like me ) been able to sit in the car, and in fact crawl all over it . Some of these people have taken some 'souvenirs' ( which is bad karma if you ask me ), and I know one gentleman who made a tracing of ALL the stickers, brackets, holes and signwriting on the car! He has giant pieces of paper rolled up like a Turin Shroud!......

In the case of "TKS 33 SA 4150" I know that some areas of paint have been touched up to conceal surface rust, and you can see on close physical inspection that some of the letters on the signwriting have been overpainted to replace flaking paint. I wish they had not done this, but that's what happens when the car is the property of a fairly directionless company that seemed to have no strong idea about how to demonstrate or display its own history and lifeblood. This will apparently soon change, as some sort of museum facility is being planned.

You can nitpick and say this and that are not original, or such and such is missing, but essentially the car is very complete in body, fittings and ancillaries. Main 'missing' items are the original engine block assembly and head. "Part Number One" for a Works 240Z or 260Z" rally car is its original bodyshell. I could wax lyrical for thousands of words telling you all about the differences between a standard production bodyshell and that of the genuine Works cars, but you will have to make do with me telling you that they were QUITE different.

The 1971 and 1973 Safari winning cars are even more original than the 1972 Monte car. When I inspected the 73 car for the first time, I found an Ostrich feather inside the passenger door ( between the inner and outer sheetmetal ). The car had hit a couple of them on the rally ( which caused some pretty impressive damage to the car, let alone the Ostrich ) and here was some evidence of the encounter. Needless to say, I put it back. I took some photos of it in place too. I also found some other evidence of the human side of the story in the navigator's door pouch; a small and very sticky plastic bottle of 'Optone' eyewash and some British Caledonian ballpoint pens.............

I could go on and on about the three cars that belong to Nissan, but it would never be enough to convince any doubters. Suffice to say that for these three cars we know their original VIN numbers, their Works identification ( 'Kanri' ) numbers and the original carnet 'foreign use' Japanese registration plate numbers. Their identity or provenance is NOT in doubt.

I find it ironic that the identity of the REAL "TKS 33 SA 4150" is being thrown into some doubt over small differences in photos that are 30 years apart, when this thread started out by pointing at the HUGE gaffe / fraud ( take your pick ) of a car that is 100% NOT what it is supposed to be.

Alan T.

[TomoHawk]

To support my and the recent statements about the identity being in question, I'll quoite from the VRJ article, where the author himself tells that there is no psirive proof which car is which:

"It has to be said at the outset that these were rally cars, and they were damaged, repaired, written off, rebodied, had new chassis, had chassis plates and registration numbers switched and put on new cars, so keeping track of them was not the art form it is today, though why anyone would want to today is another question."

Like Alan, Chris, I, et al, have recently said, that with all the new evidence, these older cars can become somewhat ambiguous. Wich is why the Author from VRJ had to rely on the words from the expert of Nissan Italia. (who could possibly be making things up himself!)

I typed up the rally article because the pring of my mag was hard to read...

rally article.txt

[daddz]

No Stephen, let's get this straight. The car that was issued with the carnet registration number "TKS 33 SA 4150" ( the car that Aaltonen & Todt crewed to a 3rd place finish on the 1972 Monte Carlo Rally ) was LHD. It had an "HLS30" VIN prefix.

Alan,

My question still stands with regard to that LHD 'works' car: the handbrake appears on the driver's side of the tunnel in the LHD 'works' car, was that performed at the factory or at some point later after it left Nissan's manufacturing plant?

Thanks for any insight into this.

[HS30-H]

Hi daddz,

Sorry if I did not make that clear.

The modification was performed in Japan in Nissan's "Works" team workshops at Oppama, whilst the cars were being built. It was done really beautifully. They even moulded some special consoles from FRP to complete the job.

The bodyshells on these cars were rather special. They had some pressing and panel details that were different from a standard production shell, and they also had a LOT of work performed on them during build. In many ways they had all the characteristics of the 432R ( "PZR" ) bodyshell from the firewall back, and the 240ZR from the firewall forward. Bodyshells were put through the standard manufacturing processes in small batches - with the shells receiving 'in series' VIN numbers - but special pressings and detail changes were added along the way. Then the bare bodyshells were transported to the competitions department workshops at Oppama for the remaining work to be done.

Some final fettling and driver / navigator preference changes were performed when the cars arrived in Europe or Africa, but in most respects the cars arrived from Japan as fully-formed rally cars. From then on, they were serviced / repaired / set up by the team mechanics at the chosen bases near to the race in question.

One of the main centres of operations outside Japan was the "Old Woking Service Station" just south west of London here in the UK. That's one of the reasons why some of us here in the UK know a fair bit about the cars.

Hope that helps?

Best regards,

Alan T.

[26th-Z]

Hey Alan, I'm not doubting the authenticity of 4150 at Zama. Heavens no! Your explanation was exactly the answer I was looking for. Some of the other pictures shown in this thread show differences also. I would love to discuss them, but not at the expense of questioned authenticity. I concur that museum cars do go through a life of their own, require constant maintenance, and "change" over a period of time for one reason or another. A Porsche 917 with LeMans heritage in the Collier Museum comes to mind. The car was not even washed from LeMans before it was placed in the museum. A real time piece, but unfortunately engine-less! The engine is on a stand next to the car. All cleaned up and polished, but I would have thought it more appropriate to leave it in the car.

We have bantered around the idea of chassis replacement and I have this opinion to express. A car's chassis is the soul of the car. Part number one. Chassis numbers (in our case) are clearly identifiable and can be tracked. It has never been a difficult science and I'll point to Ron Spain's book on Ford GT40s as a perfect example. To claim authenticity of a particular car with an allowance for chassis replacement is inexcusable and demonstrates a lack of regard to those who own valid chassis. This is where we get in to the idea of replication.

Happy St. Patrick's Day from the guy with the green car.

[Zedrally]

Originally posted by 26th-Z

A car's chassis is the soul of the car. Part number one. Chassis numbers (in our case) are clearly identifiable and can be tracked.

Amen to that! Once you change the shell you obviously have a new car!

Have a green beer on me.

MOM

[daddz]

One of the main centres of operations outside Japan was the "Old Woking Service Station" just south west of London here in the UK. That's one of the reasons why some of us here in the UK know a fair bit about the cars.

Alan,

I have read in previous magazine articles about the "Old Woking Service Station" (usually in Classic and Sports Car or Practical Classics) and it is usually when Kevin Brisotw's car is mentioned. If I am not mistaken High Street runs through Woking? (A funny tidbit is the branch office where I work for M & T is located at 87 High Street).

Maybe this year I shall be lucky enough to visit that particular part of Great Britain. A friend of mine is proposing that I tag along to attend the Banbury Run in June so that he may acquire additional parts and knowledge for a 1928 Triumph motorcyle that he had shipped over from Australia this past January. As his wife does not quite appreciate such things (he foisted a Citroen 2CV "truckette" on her last year) she has granted permission for him to travel with friends for this event.

Who knows, maybe I can meet up with some fellow Z owners whilst the weather is favorable?

Thanks again for the information!