April Fool?

[26th-Z]

Well, not only did I write the editor, but I wrote the European editor, Mr. McDonough, and this is his reply:

I believe the Editor of VRJ has responded to you, but I thought I would answer as well, as you have taken the trouble to write. At times like this, I am glad that I often say "to the best of my knowledge", or wince when someone says "this is the car". I am not an expert on 240Zs and took considerable advice, and thought the car we were depicting was at least a reproduction of the car that did the events I mentioned. I had some 'expert' advice to say that it was. Nissan could not produce a clear history themselves, and working on the recommendation of the Italian Director of Nissan, we went ahead, to have doubts put forward after it went to press. Fortunately, this is not a car for sale..it lives in the Nissan Italia Museum and has all the 'provenance' that provides...and thus it is not going to be put forward for sale as something that it is not. The good thing, as I see it, is that the car drives, handles and runs very much like the original works car. I investigated several 240Zs on the recent Monte Carlo Historic Rally, and the people involved with them could not tell which were 'original' and which had been built to exact rally specs. Tony Fall was in one of these cars on the event and the drivers described what they were like to drive.

So, thank you for your message, and apologies for getting it not entirely accurate. We appreciate getting information that keeps us on our toes.

Ed McDonough

European Editor

[ChrisA]

Aboslute malarky. The picture of the car in Zama is proof enough for me. Highly disturbing. Here's what I found on zhome.com:

1971: 19th East African Safari Rally

Overall First Place

Team - Edgar Herrmann / Hans Shuller 240Z #11

(note: Overall Victory, Class, Team, and Mfg. Victory)

Overall Second

Team - Shekhar Mehta /Mike Doughty 240Z #31

Overall Seventh

Team - Rauno Aaltonen / Paul Easter Car #12

1972: 20th East African Safari Rally

Overall Fifth Place

Team - Edgar Herrmann / Hans Shuller 240Z #10

Overall Sixth Place

Team - Rauno Aaltonen / Toni Fall 240Z #5

Overall Tenth Place

Team - Shekhar Mehta /Mike Doughty 240Z #8

1973 21st East African Safari Rally:

Overall First Place

Team - Shekhar Metha / H.W.(Lofty) Drews 240Z #1

Overall Second Place

Team - Harry Kallstrom / C. Billstram DATSUN 1800SSS

Overall Fourth Place

Team - T. Fall / M. Wood DATSUN 1800SSS

ACCIDENT - DNF

Team - Rauno Aaltonen / Paul Ester - 240Z #6

[TomoHawk]

Of course the Museum's and Nissan's directors are ggoing to tell you that those are the "race winning cars!"

Do you think that they would tell you that Datsuns didn't win the race? Even at that level in the corporate hierarchy, they have to CYA themthelves somewhat.

Just like the truck wars in the U.S. where every manufacturer will tell you that THEIR truck has "the most power" or whatever...

[2ManyZs]

Hmm, wonder how long it will be before Alan goes to see this car in person.... hope he brushes up on his Italian first. Hard to point out all the things that don't look right on this car if you can't speak da language.

A "factory" car with what looks like Western "Turbine"wheels? :stupid: Not a even a very good reproduction......and weren't all the factory rally cars red, not orange?

[TomoHawk]

Orange Mud? Or maybe fading of the cheap factory paint?

[HS30-H]

I've composed a detailed e-mail to Ed McDonough, and cc'd it to his Publisher / Editor Casey Annis. They have already heard from 26th-Z and sblake01, so I think they know what to expect :classic:

Its hard for me to understand how they could go ahead with an eight page article on a car - even putting it on the magazine's cover - if they even so much as sniffed a little uncertainty as to its provenance. It is most telling that Mr McDonough stated in his reply to 26th-Z that he thought the car ".... was at least a reproduction of the car that did the events I mentioned". In my opinion, that's not a good enough excuse. Its either the real thing or its not.

One paragraph from the article rang some of the loudest alarm bells in my head. I will reproduce it here in its entirety:

"It has to be said at the outset that these were rally cars, and they were damaged, repaired, written off, rebodied, had new chassis, had chassis plates and registration numbers switched and put on new cars, so keeping track of them was not the art form it is today, though why anyone would want to today is another question."

Well, much of that is true for many of the different Works rally teams ( Ford were particularly adept at switching the identities of certain cars ) - but it was never really so true of Nissan. In fact, as far as the S30-series Z Works rally cars were concerned, the fact that most of them were initially sent abroad on very strict Japanese 'carnet' registration numbers ( with all of the restrictions and potential penalties that went with them ) ensured that Nissan kept their noses cleaner that many other teams of the period. They were not perfect by any means ( the UK base of operations ensured at least a little skullduggery ) but it was never as blatant or rife as in most other teams. He might be surprised at some of the 'secrets' that are common knowledge amongst some of us.

In my opinion, the last part of his above statement is somewhat insulting to the whole idea of what constitutes a historical artefact and what does not. He can't talk about 'provenance' and then ask "why" somebody would want to keep track of the true identity of a car.......

Myself and a few like-minded friends have been researching these Works rally cars for some years now. I have an archive of many hundreds of photographs, and lots of archive material - much of it from people directly involved in the Works effort centred on the S30-series Z. We have identified the in-period existence of a great number of Works cars, and tracked the activities and movements of a great number of them. In many cases we also know what fate held in store for them, and what happened to the parts afterwards. Only a very small few of them suffered from the ignominy of switched identity, and we have a good handle on those particular cars. I think its too much of a cop-out to say that you can't trust anything to do with the subject of old race cars, as in many cases - with pooled resources and enough reference - you CAN actually get a pretty good idea of what went on.

I can't even trust that Mr McDonough is accurately reporting the comments of these Italian gentlemen. The article itself is riddled with sloppy errors, and keeps contradicting itself. Here are a few examples:

"A youthful Jean Todt and Rauno Altonen ( sic ) pose with the 3rd place trophy from the 1971 Monte Carlo Rally."

".....1973 Monte Carlo 3rd place finishing car."

"They also said that this car had done the East African Safari Rally in 1972, and won."

"The author stretches out the 1973 Safari Rally-winning car on the roads of Italy's Targa Florio."

He continually spells Aaltonen and Mehta's names incorrectly too ( its Aaltonen not Altonen, and Shekhar not Shekar ). I guess he got those directly from his source material. The irony is that in two photos in the article these names are spelled correctly on the signwriting of the cars themselves........

If the car was claimed as being one that had not been seen elsewhere in recent years, then the subject would need deeper research in order to establish the car's authenticity or otherwise. However, one would normally expect at least a few identifying features on such a car to show their true Works origin. I see NO parts or features on this car that look like Works-built or even Works-type parts. Let me make that quite clear. NOTHING on this car looks Works-correct.

In the case of the car that was issued with the carnet registration "TKS 33 SA 4150", further research is pointless; the original car is one of the rare survivors and lives - quite famously - in Japan.

Alan T.

[HS30-H]

Where's Guus?

Come on Guus, chime in. Your no.5 looks better than theirs does.:classic:

[2ManyZs]

If they see Guus' car, they'll want to do a story on it as well.... at least maybe this time they'd get the story right eh?

[TomoHawk]

Make sure the proper names goes with the pictures.

Also make sure you are paid EXTREMELY well BEFORE you send them copies of your archival stuff so they can get their records in order!

Good on yer, alan.

[TomoHawk]

Originally posted by 2ManyZs

If they see Guus' car, they'll want to do a story on it as well.... at least maybe this time they'd get the story right eh?

Doesn't Guus have the car that finished 1st in 1977 and 2nd in 1979/1980??

I'll attest to that!

[Z-point]

HI Guys,

Just coming in from work and read the article as well. I got the magazine send by one of my friend in the states. Thanks Ben!

As I spoke out already at the UK forum I too think this car is a fake. The Italians had the time of their lives telling the ‘Yanks’ this weird story. Or the Italians are big layers.

First of all, if somebody owns a works rally car, private or factory, you don’t mess up!!! You keep the car as it was, certainly if you are the director of Nissan Italy!!!

What they did is pure rape! If it was a works there is nothing left to proof it, it now has a front and rear spoiler! A totally wrong colour! Wrong wheels! Wrong exhaust! Fake side lifting jacks. Etc etc. :tapemouth :tapemouth

Why in gods name, do you turn a works car in to a road car?

And if you are the safari winner you say you are, why you do carry the no 5 plate? You know why….have a look at this picture. Taken back in June 2001, here you see the same car driving under start number 206 doing the Giro the Sicilia, with no5 on the doors, why???!:stupid:

I had e-mail contact with the Italians back in October 2000, after I told them what my planes where it became silent. This is bluff pure bluff

[Z-point]

forgot the picture