Philosophical discusion on build dates

[Zedrally]

Here is the thread that Alan T asked for. Drum roll ...please

I knew your radar would be turned on with the tread on #160, so let the discusion begin.:classic:

If any one has a link to the original thread started 2 or so years ago please link it to this thread. I believe Kats had a lot of ground breaking information posted on it, one discusion that I don't believe was raised was the actual production number in units per day?

Over to you...........

[2ManyZs]

This the one your talking about Mike?

http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=7801&highlight=build+dates

There's a couple other rather lengthy threads concering build dates, easy enough to find just using "build dates" in the search box.

[Zedrally]

Yes, thats one of them.

I'll just await Alan's comments.......

[HS30-H]

Er, thanks Mike!

( Alan T shields his eyes from the array of spotlights on Zedrally's car )

:classic:

[HS30-H]

A couple of days ago, this thread was started:

HS30 #160 for sale

It fairly rapidly turned from a "For Sale" ad into a discussion about the earliest HS30 build dates.

I wondered if anyone might be interested in pursuing this further without spoiling the original for sale ad? Thanks for starting a new thread Zedrally:classic:

To be honest, we have had such a lot of concentrated discussion about this in the past ( see the Build Dates thread, which 2ManyZs linked to above ) that its possible most people will not be very motivated to give their thoughts on the subject. However, I think there are connected areas of this subject that we have not really covered......

Carchaeology is one thing ( and we love that ) but philosophy is quite another. I think many of us will have different opinions, but isn't it worth trying to get a discussion going about the following?:

*When does a 'car' actually become a car? I'm thinking about the production line for the S30-series Z cars, and wondering at exactly WHAT point in the production process we can allocate a particular car its 'identity'. Is it when the full VIN number is stamped on a bodyshell? Is it when the car reaches a certain stage of completion on the line? Or is it when the car reaches the 'end' of the production line ( or after it passes its quality control check and gets its "OK" sticker? ).

*When we talk about 'Pre-Production' cars, or the first cars that were put through on the Z production line, how do we decide on the identity - or lack of - for these particular cars? If they do not have full chassis / VIN number stamps, can we include them in 'Production' numbers or not? What if "HLS30-#1" or "S30-#1" never actually got stamped with any numbers? What if they DID, but were broken up / disassembled for research and development purposes at the Factory? Do they count in the production figures? What about cars ( like the two North American 'test' cars ) that had different details from what we might call 'final' production spec? Do we include them? What about crash test cars etc?

*How are we identifying the actual build dates of certain cars? I'm thinking in particular of cars built right at the beginning, or right at the end of the month, or year. As far as I am aware, we can't identify the ACTUAL day of production for a particular car - so how are we able to allocate it a month of production, and therefore it follows in the case of January and December cars - an accurate year? Do we follow the door jamb tags - where fitted - to the letter? I don't think we should really as it seems clear that they were attached after production, but what else is there to go on? Do we look at componentry manufacture dates, come up with an average and then decide through probability?

*Lastly, do ONLY production models - released by a company for sale to the General Public - count when it comes to deciding 'production' of a type of car? I'm thinking of ALL of the first generation S30-series Z types here. Where do we draw the line? Do we have to follow the stamped VIN / Chassis Identification number to the letter? What if there were gaps in the numbers? What about the grey area between full production cars and prototype / production test / production research / assembly test cars etc?

You can see why I was calling this a 'philosophical' discussion. :classic:

Alan T.

[Alan Pugh]

Hello all,

Well never being too shy to jump in boots and all here we go.

My car as an example, because I don't have an early 240 to use as an example, is GRS30-015866. The only place a date ( month and year ) appears on the car is on the ADR plate affixed to the fire wall by Nissan Motor Company (Aust) P/L.

The date stamped into this plate is 2/77.

Was this plate fitted in Aust or fitted in Japan and stamped here?

I believe the plate is stamped and fitted in Aust.

So, when did my car come off the line in Japan?

As Alan T. asks when does a car become a car. Is it when it rolls off the line and gets allocated to a market or when it gets the ADR plate fitted in Aust and goes on general sale?

You could order a car through your Nissan dealer if you wanted to wait months for it, do these become cars straight away because they have been given a market country and an identity straight away.

Does anyone know when the fire wall is stamped with the vin #?

What would happen if a car got delivered to Aust, came off the boat and somehow got lost on the docks for four months, then found and sent to Nissan, would this cars ADR plate be stamped with the current date or be back dated four months?

I know these are questions that are very hard to answer and are very hyperthetical, or are they?

I look forward to the answers.

Alan P.

[abas]

sticking my oar in with a bit of heresay and assumption.:classic:

My understanding of the production scheduling surrounding the export of 240z's ONLY, is that someone in Nissan decided that the US market had priority and that a huge effort to produce LHD cars took place in late 1969. If this is the case did Nissan effectively 'down tools' on the RHD cars until it got its LHD production up to speed, or did it continue producing RHD cars for models other than the 240z. The amount of RHD fairladys and possibly other models from 1969 would suggest to me that RHD production did continue.

I have pictured in the past the idea of low vin RHD 240z perhaps being part finished in 1969 and then completed later when LHD production allowed, but that seems unlikely given that RHD models other than the 240z were being produced in 1969. This is perhaps where the low vin RHD 240z's owners start to believe that their cars were produced in 1969.

From my own point of view I have often heard it suggested that the date on the seatbelts is a good dater of when the car was produced. On my own car dated April 1970 the seat belts are dated dec 1969, but I doubt that that was when it left the factory. More likely there was some stockpiling of parts such as seat belts during late 1969 in preparation of the push for LHD production in early 1970, which were actually used up on early 1970 cars.

Possible ( but unlikely) that my car has had the seat belts replaced I suppose.

for what its worth

Andrew

[Mr Camouflage]

Originally posted by Alan Pugh

Hello all,

Well never being too shy to jump in boots and all here we go.

My car as an example, because I don't have an early 240 to use as an example, is GRS30-015866. The only place a date ( month and year ) appears on the car is on the ADR plate affixed to the fire wall by Nissan Motor Company (Aust) P/L.

The date stamped into this plate is 2/77.

Was this plate fitted in Aust or fitted in Japan and stamped here?

I believe the plate is stamped and fitted in Aust.

So, when did my car come off the line in Japan?

As Alan T. asks when does a car become a car. Is it when it rolls off the line and gets allocated to a market or when it gets the ADR plate fitted in Aust and goes on general sale?

You could order a car through your Nissan dealer if you wanted to wait months for it, do these become cars straight away because they have been given a market country and an identity straight away.

Does anyone know when the fire wall is stamped with the vin #?

What would happen if a car got delivered to Aust, came off the boat and somehow got lost on the docks for four months, then found and sent to Nissan, would this cars ADR plate be stamped with the current date or be back dated four months?

I know these are questions that are very hard to answer and are very hyperthetical, or are they?

I look forward to the answers.

Alan P.

The ADR compliance plate is fixed to the car when it arrives in australia.

Austalian cars dont have dates on them except on the compliance plate. I'm not sure who fits the compliance plate.

The date you car was made? how long is the boat trip from japan?

The firewall is stamped above the brake booster, see my gallery for pics of my number.

One of the guys here in Western Australia has HS30-00003.

[Edit. Not 00003, i mis-read the blury photo I had of the tag. It was 00803. Lowest vin number on the WA register is 117]

[Alan Pugh]

I've just come back from the shed, S**T it's cold in Melbourne.

My seat belts are dated OCT 76, five months earlier than the car being stamped FEB 77. This proves nothing, but does give a somewhat muddy time line.

The patch with the date on it also says that the belts meet ADR 4c, does this mean that the seat belts were made for each market or were these also fitted in Aust.

Mr C, just out of interest do you know the date on the ADR plate for # 00003?

This discussion raises many questions in itself.

Alan P.

[26th-Z]

What a great discussion and I want to thank all of you for participating. I have many questions and a couple of opinions.

I bought some old seat belts to use as parts for the restoration of my originals and they are date stamped 2 / 1972. This makes no sense to me for several reasons. By 1972, the seat belts found on NA cars would have been retractor type with the later push button style buckles. All of my parts fiche information indicates such.

My lovely HLS30-00026 is manufacture date stamped 11 / 69 with an engine serial number L24-2338. The seat belts are 9 / 1969. Cars with later serial numbers (such as #42) and lower engine numbers are stamped 10 / 69 and the production figures kats supplied would indicate my 26 was manufactured in October.

I would say that the car becomes a car when the OK sticker is slapped on. Prior to that, it is "under construction".

I would say that a "production" car is a production model intended to be sold and the rest are "test" or "study" examples. When we discuss production cars, we should exclude those cars which were not intended to be sold to the public.

Finally, for lack of better information, I suggest the stamped build date be used to identify and date the car to the letter. We have no better information and it would be purely subjective to discuss a date earlier than what is stamped on the door jamb, or in the case of the AU cars, the engine bay plate.

What and where were the domestic cars stamped? Is there such a chassis as HS30-00026? PS30-00026? What were the build dates for those early cars?

[v12horse]

Originally posted by 26th-Z

What and where were the domestic cars stamped? Is there such a chassis as HS30-00026? PS30-00026?

From my understanding there would be S30-00026, HS30-00026, PS30-00026, and your majesty HLS30-00026. Would There be an HS30-00026 for each export car? IE; uk HS30-00026, AUS HS30-00026, home HS30-00026, etc.?

I will come back to this thread later. I do know that the topy date on my spare is 4/74 and on door sill plate it states a production date of 5/74. I will look at the belts later. I love this thread already:classic:

-Ben

[26th-Z]

The previous thread asked the question if there were any real 1969 cars and I wanted to respond here with the idea that the model year and build date are often confused. I always prefer to use the build date as the year of the car rather than an arbitrary model year date, although that could lead to some confusion. As far as I know, the Datsun 240-Z Coupe was introduced as a 1970 model year even though the construction dates go back to September 1969 for production customer sale cars.

I have been meaning to get out the paperwork for my car and with this discussion I did. Down to the bank to retrieve the documentation - Her Majestys' Papers. To my surprise:

Her Majesty the 26th was ordered April 3, 1970. She was delivered April 29, 1970. Her original port of entry was Jacksonville, Florida and the shipping bill lists her as HLS30U-00026 907 (green).

She came standard with carpeting as listed on the window sticker.

The suggested retail price including shipping and dealer prep (antifreeze) was $3632, however she sold for $3791.13 (taxes)and wasn't paid for until May 4, 1970.