Philosophical discusion on build dates

[abas]

Originally posted by 26th-Z

Is there such a chassis as HS30-00026? PS30-00026? What were the build dates for those early cars?

Does anyone know where HS30 00026 or PS-00026 is? I know of 2 early series 1 cars in the UK which are HS 00034 & 35. In all the discussions I have heard/seen about the HLS30 vin numbers I have never heard of HLS30-00034 and 35 being referred to. (HLS30 00034 &35 are not listed on the IZCC register either) If someone knows where these ( or perhaps some other examples of same vin number/different model) perhaps the question of whether there are separate number series for each HS model could be put to bed for good.

Interestingly HS30 00035 has an engine number into 5 figures ( about 10-11000) which puts its COMPLETION date somewhere around mid 1970, if the engine number is a good guide to completion.

Kats: great detail on Mr Watanbe's car. I'm going to check if there is anything similar on mine. What date is on the seat belts on your car?

FWIW

Andrew

[HS30-H]

Originally posted by 26th-Z

I would say that the car becomes a car when the OK sticker is slapped on. Prior to that, it is "under construction".

I would say that a "production" car is a production model intended to be sold and the rest are "test" or "study" examples. When we discuss production cars, we should exclude those cars which were not intended to be sold to the public.

Finally, for lack of better information, I suggest the stamped build date be used to identify and date the car to the letter. We have no better information and it would be purely subjective to discuss a date earlier than what is stamped on the door jamb, or in the case of the AU cars, the engine bay plate.

What and where were the domestic cars stamped? Is there such a chassis as HS30-00026? PS30-00026? What were the build dates for those early cars?

Hi 26th-Z,

Good example of what I meant by a 'philosophical' discussion.

I don't necessarily agree about the car not being a car until the inspector slaps that 'OK' sticker on it. In my mind, and in my heart, I envision the car becoming a car somewhere further up the production line. I understand what you mean - as to all intents and purposes the car was not finished, or fit for sale to the general public until Nissan said it was, but even a faulty / rejected car, or one that accidentally got damaged on the production line was still a car with a positive identity.

I suppose that I might actually be inferring that an 'identity' of a car ( through its stamped firewall VIN prefix and chassis number combination ) exists as soon as its punched into the metal. I might be influenced by experiences with old race cars, which can certainly be a can of worms, and an area where one always has to expect some skulduggery and intrigue!

Actually, this part of the discussion about when an identity is taken on reminds me of some parts of the very sad abortion debates one reads about...........

As mentioned elsewhere many times, NOT all markets - and therefore not all cars - had an officially-applied DATE OF MANUFACTURE stamp on them. Japanese-market cars certainly did not, and UK-market cars certainly did not. Australian cars had their door jamb tags applied in Australia ( as far as I am aware ) and this would lead me to suspect that the data applied to them would be easily 'tweaked' to fit in with any agenda the importer might have had ( import quota / tax / model years issues? ). I also believe that the door jamb tags of the USA-market cars were possibly applied somewhat arbitrarily, and not even at the Factory ( I was once told they were applied at Honmoku ). I certainly don't trust them, for the reasons I gave on my first post in this thread.

Yes 26th-Z, there would have been an HS30-00026 ( probably went to Australia ) and a PS30-00026, and don't forget poor old S30-00026 too! However, none of these cars would have been "manufacture date" stamped in Japan. In the case of HS30-00026, if it went to Australia I believe it would have been fitted with its door-jamb tag in Australia, or at least just before it went to Australia, and NOT on the production line.

Its only possible to get near to the actual production date on non-US cars by cross-referencing the manufacture date of COMPONENTS - which, as we can see, can be slightly confusing and not entirely scientific.

Alan T.

[abas]

Originally posted by Zedrally

You mention the numbers in the door jamb, Aussie cars don't have this.

Are you saying that UK delivery did?

No HS vin car imported by Nissan in the early 1970's to the UK had the date plate in the door jamb.

As far as I know they had no dating on them at all. So engine/Vin number is the only way to date UK HS series cars.

Andrew

[HS30-H]

Originally posted by 26th-Z

What and where were the domestic cars stamped? Is there such a chassis as HS30-00026? PS30-00026? What were the build dates for those early cars?

Hi 26th-Z,

Actually, I don't think I ever thought to mention this to you before:

HS30-00026 - along with HS30-00024, HS30-00025 & HS30-00027 -was one of the first Nissan / Datsun "Works" 240Z rally cars. They debuted in their first official team rally on the 1970 RAC Rally here in the UK ( in November 1970 ).

HS30-00026 was issued with the Japanese 'carnet' registration plate number "TKS 33 SA 696".

The car no longer exists, although its 'identity' still does ( the VIN plate and stamped VIN number are privately held here in the UK )........................

Alan T.

ps - here's a pic of TKS 33 SA 696 on the 1971 Welsh Rally:

[Alfadog]

This topic sounds a lot like a topic I wrote an essay on last semester... that is, when is a human bestowed with his/her human rights? Of course, to answer that we must first determine when a human 'begins' (struggling to find an appropriate word here). That is, at conception? Embryo? Foetus? Basic Senses? Birth?

Of course, this topic isn't quite the same, but I find it amusing that we're talking about our "babies" with such passion...

Basically, I think to determine a point in time when a car becomes a car (optimistic, eh?) the first step could be to list all of the options. So I'll try:

- When the bare shell is complete

- When the VIN is stamped on

- When the engine is placed in the car, and the VIN tag is attached (with VIN and engine number)

- When the car is complete (at the end of the production line)

- When the car has been OK'ed for quality control

- When the car arrives in the country it is to be sold in

- When the car is sold.

What do you think of this idea? Any additions? Or am I just talking crap??

(Of course, I'm ignoring the fact that many of these stages can't be determined, but this is a philosophical discussion. And since when was philosophy practical )

[26th-Z]

Good morning everyone! What a great conversation. "Zeeological Carcheology" at it's best! :classic:

Kats, you always send me scrambling to my boxes and bags of parts to see what I have. You challenge me. Thanks. I will post photographs of the papers for you. The original owner's manual has interesting information also. The only other dated parts I know of (now) are my wheels - date stamped 10 / 69.

Alan, I am in perfect agreement with you - especially when you bring up the race car chassis scenario. Good point. The records of Ford GT-40s and Porsche 917s are littered with "spare" and "uncompleted" chassis numbers later used or completed out of production sequence. With the idea that not all cars were date stamped as US delivery cars were, lacking uniformity, we cannot simply apply a birth date. And yes, this discussion could be very similar to a Roe vs Wade debate!

I don't want anyone thinking that I claim HLS30-00026 is a 1969 model year car. It is clearly a 1970 model. Evidence points to production in the fall of 1969.

And now I will close with words of wisdom from my Porsche fanatic friend; "The VIN is the birth certificate and the OK sticker is the first doctor's appointment".

[Mr Camouflage]

Originally posted by 240 in OZ

Mr C

Do you have anything to back up the reported RHD car number 003. I (and many others) thought that RHD #004 was the first bought into Australia in 1970.

This is interesting. Is there any pics of the car anywhere??

Thanks for any reply

Joseph

As Darth Vader said "I find your lack of faith disturbing"

I've seen the car, the compliance and nissan tags. What more "reported" proof do you need?

Next time I see the car i'll take more notice of the numbers.

It has the fairlady grill, fender mirrors, so i think its a japanese domestic model that was sent to australia.

I took a photo of the plates. Looks like it arrived in Aus in 1971, but the photo is out of focus.

So you all you non believers, heres the photo i took of the plates.

[240 in OZ]

Mr C

OK well this makes a big difference. Looks like RHD#003 was a Japanese home market car and it was privately imported into Australia at a later date.

Looks like RHD#004 is still the earliest car into Australia that was destined specifically for this market.

Do you blame me for being sceptical!!

Joseph

[HS30-H]

Hold on there a minute Joseph,

Just because this car was wearing a few parts that were common in the Japanese market doesn't automatically make it a Japanese market model. A grille is a 'bolt-on', and as for Fender Mirrors - well, some UK-market cars even made it over here with them on. Truth be told, the earliest of the HS30 prefix cars had a very rubbery spec that was somewhat being made up as it went along.

In fact, its VERY unlikely that it was an OFFICIAL Japanese-market model "HS30", as Japan did not get the HS30 officially until late in 1971 ( with the debut of the L24-engined 'Fairlady 240Z' models ( Fairlady 240Z, Fairlady 240Z-L & Fairlady 240ZG ). Those cars had VIN number sequences that were shared with the "Export" model HS30's - so none of them were as low as 'HS30-00003' anyway.

A number that low WOULD have been made very early in HS30 production ( just before HS30-00004 probably! :classic: ) but I don't think anyone call tell for sure on what EXACT date it was made. I think its dangerous to presume we KNOW what date such low numbers as HS30 #3 & #4 were actually made. Looking at L24 engine numbers and comparing them to those on other cars will not necessarily get us all that much closer to an exact build date for the HS30's. Certainly not to within certain weeks, anyway.

Personally, I still don't discount the possibility that one or two ( or even more ) 'HS30' prefixed cars were amongst the very first cars produced during the latter part of 1969. They may not have been product that was intended for sale to the general public, but they very well may have actually existed. The spec on these cars was different to the others, and I get the feeling that Nissan might have been working hard on finalising the spec details, and researching the L24 engine / FS5C71-A trans / 3.9 R180 diff combination that was not seen on other models at that time.

Mr C. - I'm very interested to see the firewall stamping on that car. If you ever get near it again, please try and get a good photo of it for me. I'd love to see that. The lowest HS30 number I've seen 'in the metal' was HS30-00013, and that was hanging on the wall of a friend's workshop! :classic:

Cheers,

Alan T.

[Zedrally]

Alan,

You still make mention of door jamb numbers on RHD vehicles.

Australian delivery zed did not have these..

Are you saying that export models to the UK or Continent did?

MOM

[Zedrally]

003 certainly is going to re-write the history in Oz [as I see it anyway].

The most important point to remember with this is the ADR compliance plate. [Note, Alan T, not on door jamb]:classic: . Interesting it's above the factory label though, as later models I've seen had them fitted on the fire wall

If this vehicle was privately imported [and I would doubt that], it would NOT have a compliance plate fitted. These where only available for factory imported vehiclesand fitted for Australian Delivery.

This vehicle is certainly a mystery and any information that is available would be apprechiated.

Had Mr C confirmed the existance earlier we may have all stopped wondering about 004's fate and concentrated on this earlier survivor!

MOM

[240 in OZ]

HS

I think we are talking different things here, and I apologies for that. I am talking about the first car bought into Australia, not the first, or earliest RHD car made.

I was under the belief that 004 RHD made it to Australia in 1970 and was the roadtest car used by Aussie scribes at the time.

Mr C reports that 003 RHD made it to Australia in 1971. Sure it MAY have been made first, Im not discounting that...buy 004 was here BEFORE 003.

BTW, Aussie cars DID NOT!!!! get the door data tags.

Joseph