Philosophical discusion on build dates

[deadflo]

Hey 26th Z, did you notice the sales invoice shows the car as a "1970 Datsun 4 cylinder HLS30"?

[26th-Z]

Yes I did!

I know several of the people involved with the sale of the car, originally. I bought the car from the estate of the original owner and remember it from new as it belonged to the father of a good friend of mine. The original salesman and one of the mechanics for Campbell Motors are still alive. They tell me that way back then, they didn't really know what the car was. It was the first 240 Z in Sarasota and there is some debate about this, but the first one in Florida - perhaps. An interesting little "typo", isn't it?

Campbell had just added the Datsun line to the dealership. They sold Simcas and Sunbeams. Mr. Campbell didn't want to deliver the car right away. He wanted to have the car in his showroom for a few weeks. I have the reciepts for the payments and even though the car was sold in April, it wasn't fully paid for or delivered until May.

I posted pictures in the "hand throttle" thread from my owner's manual and interestingly between 20 December 1969 and 15 January 1970 the manuals were hand edited to delete the feature from the literature. Also note the carpeting feature listed on the shipping bill. That paper would have been used as what we call the window sticker. Some time ago, we discussed whether or not the original 240 Zs came with carpeting or rubber floor mats.

The literature also shows Nissan having USA main land distributors in California and New Jersey. My shipping bill shows Jacksonville as the port of entry, indicating a couple of things. First, Her Majesty probably saw the Pananma Canal. But the extra time it took to get to the East coast might explain the November manufacture date stamped on the door jamb. Alan has proposed that the stampings were not done at the factory, but rather (where did you say, Alan?) casting doubt on the accuracy of the door jamb plates. This could explain why my lower serial number car has a later manufacturing date than later serial number cars. 26 may have been on a different boat than 42.

What might be possible is to research the shipping records for information about what was shipped where and when.

[Ben]

Originally posted by 240 in OZ

HS

I think we are talking different things here, and I apologies for that. I am talking about the first car bought into Australia, not the first, or earliest RHD car made.

I was under the belief that 004 RHD made it to Australia in 1970 and was the roadtest car used by Aussie scribes at the time.

Mr C reports that 003 RHD made it to Australia in 1971. Sure it MAY have been made first, Im not discounting that...buy 004 was here BEFORE 003.

BTW, Aussie cars DID NOT!!!! get the door data tags.

Joseph

While wading through 1500 topics that have transpired since I visited last (I know, I'm neglecting my duties! I stumble across this very interesting situation....

HS30-00003 is seriously lacking some ADR numbers to be complied any later than ~1970, there's no mention of ARD26 and that goes back to 1968(?). So what's the story here, was the car complied early & sold late perhaps?

[HS30-H]

Originally posted by 26th-Z

My shipping bill shows Jacksonville as the port of entry, indicating a couple of things. First, Her Majesty probably saw the Pananma Canal. But the extra time it took to get to the East coast might explain the November manufacture date stamped on the door jamb. Alan has proposed that the stampings were not done at the factory, but rather (where did you say, Alan?) casting doubt on the accuracy of the door jamb plates. This could explain why my lower serial number car has a later manufacturing date than later serial number cars. 26 may have been on a different boat than 42.

What might be possible is to research the shipping records for information about what was shipped where and when.

I was told - when I was living in Japan, and by a gent who used to work for Nissan at the time we are talking about - that the door jamb plates of the USA-market Export cars were not actually applied at the Factory.

He said that he thought they were stamped and attached at Honmoku Wharf ( Nissan's export freight terminal in Yokohama ).

That's one of the reasons I think they are not to be taken as 'gospel' truth; You can imagine that even if nobody was tempted to 'play' with figures ( conspiracy theory ) there would still be a good chance of them messing up numbers and not applying them 100% accurately ( ****-up theory ). Maybe even both.........

I've had the feeling for a while now that we don't have the full facts about these door jamb tags. Reading the story about your particular car, I'd almost be tempted to believe that they could have even been stamped and attached to the car in the USA.

But then what do I know?

[Mr Camouflage]

Originally posted by Ben

While wading through 1500 topics that have transpired since I visited last (I know, I'm neglecting my duties! I stumble across this very interesting situation....

HS30-00003 is seriously lacking some ADR numbers to be complied any later than ~1970, there's no mention of ARD26 and that goes back to 1968(?). So what's the story here, was the car complied early & sold late perhaps?

I'm guessing 71 because that what it looks like in the photo.., but the number i was looking at might be something else, other than the year.

I'll try and track down some more information on the car from the owner, but I believe that he bought it as is, with the fairlady grill and fender mirror. Though it appears to be a "series 2 car" from the other photos i have, but i'll give it a thorough examination when i next see the car in the metal.

[Ben]

Well, that is interesting. Perhaps the car was privately imported & subsequently complied? I don't recall seeing any Japanese cars with fender mirrors fitted with Australia originating as the location of the original sale. AIR, they were deemed illegal as a pedestrian hazard.

Ahhh, the plot thickens :classic:

[240 in OZ]

To HKSZ

FWIW, my car is a 1971 model and it also doesnt have the ADR compliance plates fitted. I think in the early days there fitment was a little fickle, especially on a state-by-state basis. My car was initially sold new in Tassie...no further comment ;>

Regards

Joseph

[240 in OZ]

To Kats

Thi is the information on RHD VIN#004 as posted by the owner/previous owner on Carl Beck's website in the register section:

VIN: HS30 0004

Comp. Date: 04/70

Color Body /Int : Red / Black

Orig.Eng.Number: L24 003605 (01/70)

Owner: XXXXXXXXXXX

City/State/Cntry: Australia

Regards

Joseph

[halz]

I'm going to head off down the "right-to-life" tangent again and follow up on Alfadog's suggested list of "existence" points which were:

When the bare shell is complete

- When the VIN is stamped on

- When the engine is placed in the car, and the VIN tag is attached (with VIN and engine number)

- When the car is complete (at the end of the production line)

- When the car has been OK'ed for quality control

- When the car arrives in the country it is to be sold in

- When the car is sold.

I have a friend (a very thorough and pedantic friend) who has recently completed a 7-year restoration on an original series I 4.2 e-type Jaguar. His reply (which is not gospel) follows:

"...Pedants are right mate! Well, I would have said that if a build date is stamped on the VIN/chassis plate then that’s the date. With the E, if I send the chassis plate details to the Jaguar Daimler Heritage Trust they will check their records and come up with the build date. I reckon that date is when the car rolls off the production line. That is to say, it is now fully driveable and capable of being tested etc. It is now a car!

However pedants being what they are, they will all have a personal view which will be about as malleable/changeable as the Rock of Gibraltar. When in doubt go to the source in this case the build date stamped on the VIN. There is NO way to work out when the bare shell was complete, or when the engine etc was placed in the car or when the VIN plate was stamped. My guess is that as soon as the car comes to the end of the production line and is ready to be driven off they whack on the VIN plate or stamp onto the riveted blank plate all the details. That’s when the plate guy can actually verify visually what the engine/gearbox/colour coded etc is. That’s my guess anyway for what it is worth!! Happy debating!"

I will put a stake in the ground and say that when a VIN plate is fixed (which includes eng. and chassis no.s) a car is born.

The next question is logically: at what point in the Z's production life is the VIN fixed?

Comments?

[kats]

Hello,

I will be back soon,

Sorry for this interapting.

"cross-referencing"

kats

[kats]

Hi,

about crank.

kats

[kats]

Hi,

I do not have time to input,so please skip my last posts.

I will be back tomorrow.

kats