Philosophical discusion on build dates

[Zedrally]

I think we will need your input so we can see the relevence to this discussion?:classic:

MOM

[26th-Z]

There is some discussion crossover between this thread and the "round knob - square knob" thread about the hand throttle. It appears as though we can "date" cars buy the parts they do or don't have and dated service bulletins.

Kats, do you have a complete set of bulletins from the first year? Although I have heard of the change to the crankshaft, I have never seen a complete description like your photo. Also to reminisce for a moment, I recall discussions about the BRE 240Z raced in SCCA competition to the C-Production National Championship. BRE had horrible difficulties with broken crankshafts initially, and when they finally got the car to last (and win), everyone thought they were "cheating" with some special "roller bearing" crankshaft. It was all in the harmonics and balance of the new design.

The bulletins kats posted tie dates to VIN numbers and engine numbers. Proabably the most definitive connection we have established so far.

Kats, Hosomi san sends greetings and has glowing remarks about your car.

Chris

[kats]

Hello,

I am sorry I was absent.I am ready for input.

I have a book "technical bulletin from Jan 1969 through Dec 1972"

This book is for the Datsuns in the U.S.I can see 510/SRL311/Lb110...

And this book eliminated some bulletins like the one which is totaly outdated or obvious like "cover letters"

I am thinking about a boundary of 1969 made 240Z.

What I am trying to say is,look into small parts will give us a hint to determine a car made 1969 or 1970. And cross referencing to every kind of information which is available.

Joseph,

thank you very much for the information.I am interested in HS30-00004/L24-003605.Let me do "checking points" for this early 240Z.

#1 This car should have "6 counter weight crank"from the bulletin.This L24 is just 2nd from the last "old crank".We agree this engine is near to Jan 1970 HLS30.But we can not say"this is not 1969 made".Because the engine number is not 100% accurate sequence as you know.

#2 This car should have stranded wire choke cable(hood release cable also)from the bulletin.HLS30-01831 may have stamped on the tag Jan or Feb 1970.You already noticed the date of the bulletin is always far late from the date which of the parts installed at the factory.Do we think HLS30-01831 was made on 1st Oct 1970?No, we do not.

Rmember the data from Nissan shatai,it shows 543 export Zs were made in 1969.But we have to minus one Z because it was a "koujyou shisaku" .This means this car was not given VIN number.So, 542 export Zs in 1969 and 1010 export Zs in Jan 1970.Toatal 1552 export Zs up to Jan 1970.Even if these Zs are all HLS30(U.S. and Canada),#01831 was not born until Feb 1970.

One trivia,from the data, the first export Z which has Vin was made in Jul 1969.Unfortunately we do not know LHD or RHD.Anyway that Z will be HLS30-00001 or HS30-00001!!

What point or how did Nissan shatai regard their production number per month?Let's say a 240Z had just completed its final inspection on Dec 31st 1969,at 17:00 P.M.Then the factory was closed all workers went back home,the 240Z was sitting in the hangar.Next day Jan 1st 1970 the 240Z was loaded on a truck to export terminal.

Did nissan count one eport Z on Dec 1969 or Jan 1970?If the 240Z was HLS30(U.S. and Canada) would the factory have given a date plate Dec 1969 or Jan 1970?Or like Alan T.said nissan shatai did not give the plate in their factory?The plate was attached at the export terminal?

(BTW,Dec 31st is a holiday for japanese.I do not know at that time the factory was opening and running their production lines.I found the number of export Z in Dec 1969 is very very low comparing to other past mounths.Was the factory closed for holidays?Or due to the problems which was found during the test ride in the U.S.?

Many of people like Mr.Katayama/Mr. Mastuo/Mr.Osawa and Mr.Uemura said 240Z had to STBY for exporting until the problems cure. I was wondering nissan had to solve the problem at same time the factory stopped line temporaly.)

#3 If this car was made in 1969,this car should have "earliest seat back" according to the parts catalog for HLS30.It says the first seat back was applied up to Dec 1969 then superceeded in Jan 1970.I do know what is different but I always have a feeling to seeing the earliest photo,the seat back is "fat" and "thick" viewed from the side.

26th-Z,

Thank you very very much for pictures of your Z's documents.It is very important Z's history.What a amazing thing you still have them!!I had never seen such a complete set for 1969/1970 240Z.I some times see 1971 version on ebay.Great papers!!Keep them forever.

And I know Hosomi-san,he has a very beautiful 240Z.He also attended at Sagamiko meeting last year he flew from the U.S. I think.Please give my regard to him.

P.S. I attached this file"report of test drive in the U.S. by Mr.Osawa"I will interprit this some day.But a little bit..

"...Vibration from the steering compornent and car shaking from the rear differencial unit was a big problem we had been considering.Thanks for the entire staffs related those kind of section,they paid a lot of efforts.As the results we managed to built [refined 240Z with advanced parts].The refined 240Z arrived by air on Dec 20th 1969,NMC checked and gave "satisfaction"to the car.But still there is a sensitive phenomenon of tire balance(choice?)"

This report may have a key of disclosure of "boundary of 1969 made 240Z"

Thank you, but sorry I am not logistic and long writing.

kats

[kats]

Hi,

That report was for Mr.Osawa's boss,not for me, just confirmation.

I revised my web site,please see some new photos and a new section.

I should start a new thread about test drive, but I need to take a break.I am exausted.

P.S.this attached file is Mr.Osawa's hand-drawing.2 HLS30 ran aprox.14000 miles from Oct to Dec 1969...(thin broken line is not Z,it shows test crews flew to east coast for visiting NMC-East,Conel laboratory,Detroit city)

kats

[Zedrally]

Originally posted by kats

As the results we managed to built [refined 240Z with advanced parts].The refined 240Z arrived by air on Dec 20th 1969,NMC checked and gave "satisfaction"to the car.But still there is a sensitive phenomenon of tire balance(choice?)"

This report may have a key of disclosure of "boundary of 1969 made 240Z"

kats

Does this indicate that the first consumer delivery was not made until 1970?

[Ben]

Kats, you're a legend :classic:

This information is very valuable, but whether is closes arguements or starts more who knows!

It certainly sounds like the first cars were not available until the last days of 1969 at the earliest - and they would have to be domestic models, exports could not have got much further than the shipping terminal.

[26th-Z]

More great information. Great discussion. Thanks for the pictures, kats.

[HS30-H]

Hi Kats,

That's very interesting. Thank you especially for showing Osawa san's report on the North American tests.

I noted a couple of things from his report;

*He refers to the "U team", and I presume this means the USA team or the team from Nissan Shatai that conducted the tests?

*Does he write that the test ENDED on 2nd October 1969, or that it STARTED on that date? I can't make it out. He also seems to mention a period of three months for the test ( and 20,000 km? ) which does not add up - or am I misreading / misinterpreting it?

*Does he state that they sent an improved CAR ( a whole car ) to Canada on 20th December, or just improved PARTS? Again, I could be misreading / misinterpreting it?

*I notice that he does not actually write "240Z" anywhere on his report. However, at the beginning of the report summary he mentions the "main market" for the car ( reference to the USA / Canada market ) - so he must be talking about the HLS30U.

Seeing as the USA / Canada test cars had NO emblems on them whatsoever ( as far as I can see ) do you think this means that even when Osawa san was writing his report, they still had not finalised / agreed the "240Z" nomenclature for the 'Export' version?

Alan T.

[mdbrandy]

This is one amazing thread. Makes me want to go back through the boxes of parts I have stashed and bagged from #215's teardown, and search them all for dates!

[26th-Z]

I have been sent to the boxes! Woe is me. Steering wheel - 10/69. Never really noticed the factory mark on it before.

[mdbrandy]

Originally posted by 26th-Z

I have been sent to the boxes! Woe is me. Steering wheel - 10/69. Never really noticed the factory mark on it before.

There's a date on the steering wheel? I'll look tonight!

[26th-Z]

The ring on the rear side of the hub. An ink mark made with a rubber stamp.