Philosophical discusion on build dates

[mdbrandy]

Originally posted by 26th-Z

The ring on the rear side of the hub. An ink mark made with a rubber stamp.

Are you talking about the yellow zinc plated ring right under the horn button that faces outward toward the driver? Unfortunately, while I can see some vague remains of a circular stamp, I cannot discern any of the characters in the stamp. On the back of the wheel hub (reverse - toward the steering column), the characters "K15" are stamped into the black ring with a number/letter punch. But no other markings. Rats. At least it is a series I wheel with no cutouts in the spokes! I wonder about PO replacement on almost every part I took off this car!

[mdbrandy]

Originally posted by kats

(Technical Bulletin on Choke Cable stranded to solid wire change)

RATS! Another nail in the originality coffin. I had assumed (read: hoped) my car had the hand throttle originally, since the PO that I bought it from actually disconnected the hand throttle because he considered it dangerous! He wasn't the original owner, though. According to him, he was the 3rd owner.

Well, I checked my choke wires today, and they are solid. So now there's no way to tell if it was originally there or not. I guess I'll just have to assume...

[Zedrally]

After reading KATs's reply to Service Bulletin's, I pondered whether there may be a master list of these somewhere? Food for thought as some gems may be found.

And so forth, this morning I was having a flick thru Wick Humble's book HTRYDZC and stumble across this on page 195.

Under selected Tech Bulletin Summeries, this was writen [not reproduced in it's entirity].

Engine-Mounting-Insulator Bolts.

Dated 8.3.1971

Begining with HLS30-13330 [manual transmission] & HLS30-1487 [Auto Trans], Higher strength boths were used.....and on it goes.

It appeared apparent that there must have been 2 production runs in th early stage or was there 2 assembly lines?

Now, one could read a lot into this.

The first one being that numbers # 1487 through to 13329 where allocated to auto trans models. If this is so then early numbers would have late build dates and so forth.

If not, then why the huge gap in numbers? Confused

:cross-eye

MOM

[Zedrally]

No takers on the fact that HLS30-13330 & HLS30-1487 [& others]were manufactured at the same time?

MOM

[Alan Pugh]

OK, now we have to find #1488 and #13328 and see if they actually are auto's.

Then we need to find #13331 and check if it's a manual.

In some ways this makes sense as it's not just the transmission that is different, wiring loom?, half shafts, some engine components and some internal components.

I think the line would have to have been split at some point into two, one for auto and one for manual, as surely the expense of two complete lines would be very high.

Definately food for thought.

[mdbrandy]

Originally posted by Zedrally

No takers on the fact that HLS30-13330 & HLS30-1487 [& others]were manufactured at the same time?

MOM

I don't think this can possibly be accurate. Car number 5639 is on e-bay right now, and is a manual.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2478887485&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT

Doesn't mean it couldn't have been automatic. I just looked at Humble's book, and that is what it says, but I expect it is a typo. I would gamble that it should be a number like 14870 instead of 1487. I believe that would make a lot more sense. There just weren't that many automatic cars made early. I had a 71 240Z that I bought in 1978, and it was an automatic. Changed it to a 4-speed within the first year :classic: . Wish I knew the VIN on it.

There are only a couple differences in the wiring, I believe between auto and manual. The auto has a dual-point distributor. And there is some kind of relay in the ignition circuit.

Anyway, I just can't see Humble's numbers being right.

[Zedrally]

Well, I guess that only someone who has access to the Service Bulletins could, perhaps Kats or Alan T?

Odd we haven't heard from either to date?

Radar on Alan or are you below the coverage?

[HS30-H]

I don't know that much about the HLS30 cars, that's all. I don't know very much about the Technical Service Bulletins for the USA / North American market either. At least not as much as some of the posters on this thread. Better to ask one of them.

I reckon its a typo or just a plain mistake. I've never heard of two production lines or two production runs.

As far as I am aware, there was only one production line and whether a car was Automatic transmission or not was NOT discernible from the VIN number - they were just given body numbers in sequence with all the others in their same VIN prefix group.

Alan T.

[26th-Z]

The simple "HLS30" doesn't give you the whole story. The automatic transmssion car would have actually been HLS30A or more specifically HLS30AU for a USA car with automatic transmission. So many more standard transmission cars were made than automatic transmissions that the VIN number difference makes perfect sense. When they built the automatics, stronger bolts were needed and they just changed them on all cars at that point. The service bulletins give us a great reference in time and I know guys who collect them. I just don't have access to that information right now.

What appears to be happening as I get more into this thread, is the idea that the actual VIN number can tell us a lot when compared to the service bulletin. Actually, my VIN number is HLS30U-00026 athough the only place it appears is in the sales documentation. HLS30 was stamped on the chassis before it was ever determined if it was going to be an HLS30U, or HLS30UN. The proper designation letters following the S30 appear to be "silent" and I propose that the determination of what the car was to be was made on the assembly line. Am I correct? All chassis were stamped "HL" or "HR" or "H" and the final determination of transmission type or destination was made later. What is the letter designation for the L20 engine?

Lets say an automatic transmission car was going to California. An HLS30 was set on the assembly line and fitted with all the proper equipment as it moved down the line. Finally, when the OK sticker was slapped on it's arse, the car breathed life as HLS30AUV. Actual birth.

[HS30-H]

Originally posted by 26th-Z

HLS30 was stamped on the chassis before it was ever determined if it was going to be an HLS30U, or HLS30UN. The proper designation letters following the S30 appear to be "silent" and I propose that the determination of what the car was to be was made on the assembly line. Am I correct? All chassis were stamped "HL" or "HR" or "H" and the final determination of transmission type or destination was made later.

What is the letter designation for the L20 engine?

What model got the "HR" prefix?

There was no letter designation for the L20 engine. Guess why.

VIN prefixes for Japanese-market cars were as follows:

S30 ( for S30 / S30A / S30S / S30SA )

PS30 ( for PS30 and PS30SB )

HS30 ( for HS30 / HS30S / HS30A / HS30SA / HS30H / HS30HA )

.....and then RS30 / GRS30 / and S31 etc etc.

[HS30-H]

Originally posted by 26th-Z

Lets say an automatic transmission car was going to California. An HLS30 was set on the assembly line and fitted with all the proper equipment as it moved down the line.

Finally, when the OK sticker was slapped on it's arse, the car breathed life as HLS30AUV. Actual birth.

Maybe this is getting back to the 'philosophical' slant to the original thread, but I just can't bring myself to accept that when that 'OK' sticker hit the window is when the car was 'born'......

Personally, I tend to think of the real 'birth' of the car somewhere further back up the line. Don't know where exactly, but sometime around when it got its own unique VIN / body number combination is - I feel - when it at least started to become an individual car. 'Course, it wasn't a whole car at that time.......

[26th-Z]

I can't remember what I had on my mind when I wrote HR, Alan. Thanks for the edit. What is an S30S?

I just received one of those fancy blue parts books - this one "revised 1 December 1973" - USA and Canada Parts Catalog. In the introductory chapter it says without explanation:

C/# HLS30-00013 from Oct. 69

C/# HLS30-21001 from Jan. 71

C/# HLS30-46001 from Sep. 71

C/# HLS30-120001 from Jul. 72

The VIN digits changed BEFORE the 260Z! Further:

C/# RLS30-000001 from Aug. 73

C/# GRLS30-000001 from Oct. 73

If you view the beginnig of a car from the time the commitment was made, ie. the time the chassis was assembled and stamped, I would have to agree with you, Alan. Pretty much, the commitment was made to build the car when the chassis was built and stamped. No matter what equipment was placed, the technical bulletins would establish that time line.