Philosophical discusion on build dates

[HS30-H]

Originally posted by 26th-Z

What is an S30S?

Hi 26th-Z,

An S30S is Z Genesis

S30S = "ZS" = Z Standard. Your basic 'cooking' Z. No carpet, no hubcaps, no bumper trim, no rear demist, no clock, no radio, no frills, no mention on zhome.com ( poor thing ).

You didn't take my bait about the L20 engine having no VIN prefix denomination letter. Spoilsport. Maybe you knew what was coming.

:tapemouth

[deadflo]

26th wrote:

>>I just received one of those fancy blue parts books - this one "revised 1 December 1973" - USA and Canada Parts Catalog. In the introductory chapter it says without explanation:

C/# HLS30-00013 from Oct. 69

C/# HLS30-21001 from Jan. 71

C/# HLS30-46001 from Sep. 71

C/# HLS30-120001 from Jul. 72 <<

I guess you guys are probably way ahead of me on this, but my read on this info is the different s30 incarnations. I know that the series one cars ended with HLS30 21001, so this list shows the serial numbers for series one, two and three.

[HS30-H]

Yes - the Nissan 'R DRIVE' parts books are really useful and informative.

The question is - just how accurate are the numbers they show for engines and body numbers?

If you believe the one for the 'Export' HS30 ( RHD model 240Z ) then HS30-00003 was "from Oct-69"..........

Here's a scan of the relevant page:

[26th-Z]

Hello Alan,

Your L20 response drew an; "Oh...of course" from me. Yes, I could see the handwriting all OVER the wall. I would have thought just the opposite about an S30S - fully loaded "super" bersion complete with Hitachi Surround Sound and Tokico heated seats.

I was hoping you would comment on the printed data showing 12 VINs unaccounted for. Beck posts an interesting article which should be referenced; "The First Load of Z Cars to the United States" for our discussion of how to consider the production volume. He locates several of the early numbered cars demonstrating their existence and supposes what happened to the rest. I might take issue with which cars were on the first boat, my car breaking the rule Carl proposes. My car went to the East coast. True, it could have been off-loaded in California and many years ago I was told by telephone conversation with Nissan that my car was transfered from an Arizona dealer, but my documentation does not support either theory. Nor do the dates of delivery fall within the time line. Similarly, why would the Parts Catalog show C/# 00013 if the first car sold to the public was C/# 00016.

I'll go out on a limb and support inclusion of the cars not sold to the public with the total production figures. C/# 00001 may have been destroyed, but evidence supports the fact it was built as a numbered chassis indicating commitment to production of the model. I do not support inclusion of the "white body" chassis or those without VIN stampings, rather viewing them as spare parts. I can just hear us go into the part number one discussion, but I just can't subscribe if the part doesn't have a part number.

I'll get a picture of the Parts Catalog page tomorrow. I don't know what one might surmise other than a printed source of date / VIN relationship. The technical bulletins would have to support the data.

[26th-Z]

My HLS30 data is that exact page - thanks.

[HS30-H]

Originally posted by 26th-Z

Hello Alan,

I was hoping you would comment on the printed data showing 12 VINs unaccounted for. Beck posts an interesting article which should be referenced; "The First Load of Z Cars to the United States" for our discussion of how to consider the production volume. He locates several of the early numbered cars demonstrating their existence and supposes what happened to the rest. I might take issue with which cars were on the first boat, my car breaking the rule Carl proposes. My car went to the East coast. True, it could have been off-loaded in California and many years ago I was told by telephone conversation with Nissan that my car was transfered from an Arizona dealer, but my documentation does not support either theory. Nor do the dates of delivery fall within the time line. Similarly, why would the Parts Catalog show C/# 00013 if the first car sold to the public was C/# 00016.

I'll go out on a limb and support inclusion of the cars not sold to the public with the total production figures. C/# 00001 may have been destroyed, but evidence supports the fact it was built as a numbered chassis indicating commitment to production of the model. I do not support inclusion of the "white body" chassis or those without VIN stampings, rather viewing them as spare parts. I can just hear us go into the part number one discussion, but I just can't subscribe if the part doesn't have a part number.

Hi 26th-Z,

I feel like I have to be careful when discussing the LHD cars, and especially careful when putting forward any thoughts that might be seen as the equivalent of blasphemy

A couple of quotes from the article you mentioned jump out at me as worthy of question:

*"According to Nissan Motors, they usually do not release any of the first twenty to twenty five cars produced, when starting the assembly of a completely new model".

Well - this calls into question what Nissan would include in that first twenty to twenty five cars produced. We know that some very low number HS30 models made it out of the Factory and were sold to the General Public, and surely you would think that the difference between the LHD and RHD 'Export' models might be enough for Nissan to include some of the RHD Export models in that 'first 20~25'.

Moreover, you would expect that the Domestic-Market models ( which we KNOW were produced in higher numbers than the LHD Export versions during 1969 ) would have to be included too - if not indeed getting their own 20~25 cars for R&D / crash testing etc.

I would have thought that the Domestic cars could even be subdivided themselves ( between S30 and PS30 prefixes ) as they were different enough from eachother to warrant different post-build inspection and even different crash testing etc?

I don't personally know any super low-number VINs for Japanese market cars, although I HAVE seen PS30-00013 in the metal ( it still exists ).

*"Rumor has it that #00009 - #00015 were sent to Nissan Canada for cold weather testing. These cars were not completed production units - but rather were test mules."

If these cars were numbered as quoted, then I wonder if they are the same cars that appear in the photos of the USA / Canada testing runs that we have discussed in the past. Those cars were very clearly not the same spec as the first of the production models that were delivered to the public for sale, and not even - seemingly - the same spec as nos 00007, 00008 & 00009 which still exist and are well known in the USA? There is some conflict in this information.

I agree with you that if Nissan quoted HLS30-00013 in the R-Drive book that there is a very good chance it made it outside the Factory - and may have been sold to the general public. Certainly if you cross-reference this with the fact that HS30-00003 is quoted in the R-Drive parts book for the RHD Export cars, and we know that this car was indeed sold to the general public, then it might well hold true.

Our "Part Number One" discussion still fascinates me. I agree that a 'White Body' or spare bodyshell WITHOUT a stamped VIN number would have to be classified as a spare part, but spare unused bodies WITH complete VIN numbers DID make it outside the Factory. In some respects, I find myself unable to shake off the feeling that such a bodyshell has a firm identity and needs to be included in our discussions - if only to establish that such a number existed.

Alan T.

[kats]

Hi Alan,

I will post tonight but for now,just a little bit for reviewing.

When I made a interview to Mr.Osawa and Mr.Uemura(test crew in the U.S. & CANADA)They said these.

#1 2 Test cars were sent back to japan.

#2 They were "Seisan shisaku #14 & #15

#3 The one had a manual trans and the other had an Auto trans

#4 They both had a rear window defogger

kats

[HS30-H]

Hi Kats,

Does this mean that Seisan Shisaku #14 & #15 were HLS30-00014 and HLS30-00015?

Or were the Seisan Shisaku cars not numbered? Or were they other ( lower? ) numbers of HLS30 bodies?

There are lots of secondary questions that would lead on from your answer.

I'm still confused about the quantity of cars that did the cold weather tests in USA & Canada. From the pictures I have seen, I can identify THREE different California registration tag numbers.

Alan T.

[halz]

Great discussion guys, keep it up.

The topic of cold weather testing makes me wonder if 'hot' weather testing also took place...and if so, where? Australia is a modern day favoured locaiton for extreme hot weather testing (eg Porche Cayene)...but what about back in the 60s and 70s? Was such testing done? Would it have been done on the US mainland?

[26th-Z]

Halz,

Go back a couple of pages and check out the map kats posted. What a great time those guys must have had! What a drive! Take for instance, the leg South from Canada down to Los Angeles. That drive was through the Grand Teton Mountain range just West of Yellowstone and down into the Great Salt Lake Basin. Further South, they drove through the Indian reservations just North of Grand Canyon and then West through Zion and Las Vegas on their way to L.A. Striking country, this land will really make a believer out of you. The Southern leg to New Orleans and back would have taken them through the low desert along the Mexican border and then further East into the high humidity region of the Gulf states. On their way back, they drove through vast areas of farm and cattle land to the high desert in Death Valley before descending to Los Angeles.

I can't tell you what a life's accomplishment it would be to drive that route and all the people involved should be honored for what they accomplished and what they hold in their memories. Just awesome. They experienced every climatic condition to extreme and did it all without cell phones.

The North American test drive is something to really appreciate and admire in it's significance. It is not a normal thing to do and the drive would surely stress any automobile to it's limits. Not to mention the people who did it. The counrty is rugged and the weather conditions could be horrendous - ice and snow to extreme dry heat, blowing sand to blowing buckets of water. It kind of makes me laugh when I think about it, and I'll bet a lot of the members here would chuckle too. "Lets take a couple of cars over to America and drive around for a few weeks - see what happens".

[Zedrally]

Halz,

The Japanese have been bringing there cars over here [Oz] for testing since the mid fiifties.

Possibly the most famous would be the Bluebirds & Mr K. in one of the round Australia Trials, can't remember exactly which one but I don't think it was REDEX, but then again maybe it was, in fact I'm sure it was. 1B6 would have been a Teenager then!

There is a photo of them somewhere on this site as I think the topic was touched in the RH/LH handbrake thread!

[halz]

26th,

I took a bus tour with my wife from L.A. through Arizona, Utah, Nevada to San Francisco and saw a lot of the 'canyonlands'. I agree with you it is spectacular country. As an aside, I would have found studying for my Geology/Geophysics degree if I'd done it in America and had those beautiful formations fo look at. Australian rocks by contrast are very old, weathered and deformed - much harder to understand basic G+G principles when looking at our local formations...

But enough. I had a chuckle at you comment re: "lets tell the boss we'll be road-testing the cars in the USA!" would the Japanese sense of humour allowed them to try that one on?