Philosophical discusion on build dates

[HS30-H]

I agree - that was some drive. What an adventure. Looks like they didn't have too many car problems either - which is pretty amazing.

However, we should remember that in some ways the 510 blazed the trail for the success of the Z in the USA / Canada. In some ways they would have known what to expect:

In late 1967, Nissan's "Kaku U" group conducted a "Beikoku Yushutsu Tekigo Chosa" ( American Export Adapatability / Suitabilty Test ) with a pair of 510's.

The 5-man team left from Los Angeles on October 30th, and drove more than 13,000km over a period of 38 days. They averaged 430km per day, at an average speed of 70km/h. I believe they got as far north as Fairbanks, Alaska. A large proportion of the test was conducted in Canada - with its cold temperatures - rather than further south with hot temperatures.

Zedrally made a good point about Nissan testing cars in Australia from back in the Fifties.

Don't forget that Japan's summertime temperatures can get very high indeed, too. In fact, Japan offers a great contrast in road types and terrain from north to south, and great contrasts in temperature and conditions between Summer and Winter seasons.

[26th-Z]

New batch of photographs. Here is the VIN page I was talking about.

[kats]

Hi everyone,

I do my best.I must reply for some,please forgive me that I may not reply in sequence or may just forget replying.

#1

I posted "240Z had to remain on the port".This is correct at least destination to the U.S.I am not sure about other destinations.

Of cource some test cars were arrived at the U.S.in 1969.My big question is,what happened to approx.500 completed 240Zs(LHD&RHD) ?They had already been assembled whole things.Had they been equipped advanced parts?Some small parts would be easy to replace(I do not know what was advanced parts exactly though)but nissan even did not replace due so much bother ?Or some small advanced parts would have been replaced but big/complicated parts would not have been replaced.

Here is my guessing,my 03/1970 240Z has a thick tar mat(insulator)on the rear deck floor. But so many 1969 240Z does not have it.

Mr.Osawa and Mr.Uemura said big road noise was also a big problem.I think the end of test driving in very late Dec 1969, nissan would add insulator on the rear deck floor to corespond test driving.

I also made an interview to Mr.Miyate who was a chief of design inside of a body and a chassis of S30.The early head light case is made of FRP,this is his idea,also Mr.Matsuo had a same idea during his cray study.

Mr.Miyate was troubled with that headlight case,he could not find the best way to make.He even tried steel at first stage but it was not good.One day he was at a train staion,he saw a plastic vacume formed seat.He found an idea "ask a manufacture of the seat to help me".

The company is Kotobuki they make various plastic seat for the stadium and staition etc.

Mr.Miyate payed attention to the interior too.He said he wanted to apply good quality carpet for the U.S. 240Z because they were used to have it in their daily life.Not like japanese.

I guess there was a change about carpet.1969 240Z has rubber mat but nissan wanted to reduce noise,nice carpet became standard for 1970 240Z.

#2

from the report,Mr.Osawa said they started test of "270(code of S30)"from 2nd Oct 1969 to the end of Dec.And mentioned "The final car"(I know what he was saying.typical japanese style.In this case FINAL means the solution of the problem at this moment)had been equipped advanced parts,then this car was sent to the U.S. by air.This car was arrived in the U.S. on 20th Dec 1969.

He wrote"Kaku- U" also.As Alan T. said the test crew was called Kaku-U and this was continued for 240Z's test crew too.

#3

"Seisan shisaku"this car has a VIN number.They used this nomenclature for the very first car which has VIN.

Mr.Uemura and Mr.Osawa said these test cars "Seisan shisaku#14 & #15" was not HLS30-#14 & #15.

Nissan shatai counted all S30 models(Dom & EXpo) for it.

O.K,Like this,they made Kojyou shisaku first,these cars do not have a VIN.Nissan shatai made 3 S30s(2 Dom/1 Expo) as Koujyou shisaku.But I do not know which car(DOM or Expo)was Koujyou shisaku #1 in May 1969.

Then they made a car which has a VIN,this became a Seisan shisaku.

So,let's do cross-refferensing.

According to the production number data of 1969,you can count 3 s30s(2 Dom/1 Expo) in May and June.But these are Koujyou shisaku(do not have a VIN) as Mr.Uemura & Mr.Osawa told me.

11 S30s(8 Dom/3 Expo) were built in Jul & Aug,these were Seisan shisaku which have a VIN.So, Seisan shisaku #14 & #15 must built in Sep 1969.

If all Expo S30s up to Sep 1969 were HLS30,test cars"Seisan shisaku #14" must be HLS30-00004 & 00005.

According to Alan T's past post,HS30-00003 was made in Oct 1969 showing in the parts catalog(This photo is great!!!Alan,)

If HS30-00001 & 00002 were made before Oct 1969,these test cars "Seisan shisaku #14 & #15" must be HLS30-00002 & 00003.

P.S.Did I post this photo before?The second from the left:Mr.Uemura(he was a captain of this mission),the third from the left:Mr.Osawa.Note;240Z had snow tires.The test started from L.A,final stage was a cold operation in CANADA.This photo must be taken near the end.

kats

[kats]

Hi Alan,

You found a good point,why there were at least 3 different licence plate for the Zs?

I asked this question to Mr.Uemura & Mr.Osawa,they really do not know,"uhh..oh yeah...had we gotten new licences? Maybe.."

But I confirmed there were only two 240Zs during the mission.

You may find these Zs were equipped some featuring in some stage in the video which I will post.Some times I can see they got rear spoiler,different hub caps etc.

Yes,a red 510 was always there.

kats

[Zedrally]

Originally posted by kats

I have a book "technical bulletin from Jan 1969 through Dec 1972"

kats

Hi Kats,

Could you please reproduce the bulletin:

Engine-Mounting-Insulator Bolts.

Dated 8.3.1971

This bulletin makes mention of differnt VIN numbers applying to Manual & Auto Trans HLS 30 models, and implies either there where 2 production lines or provision was made for different models having different numbers along the line.

For example the bulletin commences with model numbers HLS30-13330 & HLS30-1487, indicating that the modification that was made [at the same time] yet applied to different VIN's.

Ta

MOM

[26th-Z]

It took me quite a while to find this old thread, but we need to reference it to this conversation. Good stuff. http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9318&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

I found the pictures I was looking for, Alan. They are in this thread along with some of yours from the '69 Tokyo Auto Show.

Kats, you say the cars were taken out of their crates at NMC. What is NMC? The drive to New Orleans first would have taken Osawa san and Uemura san through the low desert at a very hot time of the year and from Texas, East, during the later part of hurricane season. They drove up North along the west coast highway in late fall and down through the Teton Mountains some time after Thanksgiving - early December. A testimony to the cars and the team. What an adventure!

I still don't have pictures showing 3 different license plates. The picture from the Phoenix Dog Track shows both cars with identical front plates - 2177 perhaps Japanese - and the Canada pictures show 060 ACJ on one car. Would the third plate be the other car in Canada?

Kats, you pose an interesting theory about the VIN #s for the Canada cars. My data shows 12 HLS30s prior to October, but that does not agree with the production schedule you are using. Also, when I read the production schedule, I see two listings for June. It follows:

1 export car May

1 export car June

2 export cars July

1 export car August

2 export cars Septermber

The schedule shows 17 total cars (dom and exp) built through August and 28 by the end of September. I don't think it is possible for HLS30-00004 and 5 to be the NA test cars.

It seems apparent that cars produced up to October were used for study and those produced after October were intended to be sold. Depending on which information you believe, 12 to 15 HLS30 examples would need to be accounted for prior to October. I am begining to think the figures from the Parts Catalogs include October production as the production schedule from kats does not agree with 13 HLS30s prior. Beck accounts for HLS30-00006, 7, and 8 on his site, and shows them as October 1969 build dates which would coincide with the 52 export cars built that month.

Getting on to the parts that may have been modified or added due to the testing...very early cars do not have sound tar on the rear deck. I know car #s 16, 19 and 26 have clear hatch glass ( no defroster ) and I had seat corner guards at one time. The air filter box without the air damper is early. Would it be safe to say the early series one modifications were made as a result of the adventure?

[mdbrandy]

Originally posted by 26th-Z

Getting on to the parts that may have been modified or added due to the testing...very early cars do not have sound tar on the rear deck. I know car #s 16, 19 and 26 have clear hatch glass ( no defroster ) and I had seat corner guards at one time. The air filter box without the air damper is early. Would it be safe to say the early series one modifications were made as a result of the adventure?

#215 has clear hatch glass and an air filter box without damper. What are seat corner guards?

[HS30-H]

Originally posted by 26th-Z

Kats, you say the cars were taken out of their crates at NMC. What is NMC?

I still don't have pictures showing 3 different license plates. The picture from the Phoenix Dog Track shows both cars with identical front plates - 2177 perhaps Japanese - and the Canada pictures show 060 ACJ on one car. Would the third plate be the other car in Canada?

Hi 26th-Z,

NMC = Nissan Motor Co. USA.

Those "2177" plates appear to be Californian. Could they possibly be temporary issue for a limited-period import? You are right - now that I look at them they DO appear to have the same numbers on them, although I can't see the other digits too well.

I was thinking that they could have used Japanese 'carnet' registration plates for temporary use in a foreign country - but of course that would only be possible of the cars had been registered in Japan FIRST. It seems certain that these cars were NOT registered in Japan - so that's why they could not use the carnet plates.

Anybody know anything about temporary import use plates in California for the 1969 period? Why would TWO cars have the SAME number?

Here's the pic of the "2177" cars:

[HS30-H]

Here's the "060 ACJ" plate pic.

I'm still wondering if this is the 'modified' / updated car from December 1969, with all the improvements / alterations from what they learned in the tests? If not, it begs the question as to why its wearing a different California license plate?

[HS30-H]

Originally posted by 26th-Z

Kats, you pose an interesting theory about the VIN #s for the Canada cars. My data shows 12 HLS30s prior to October, but that does not agree with the production schedule you are using. Also, when I read the production schedule, I see two listings for June. It follows:

1 export car May

1 export car June

2 export cars July

1 export car August

2 export cars Septermber

The schedule shows 17 total cars (dom and exp) built through August and 28 by the end of September. I don't think it is possible for HLS30-00004 and 5 to be the NA test cars.

Hi 26th-Z,

You might be counting the January to June 1969 6-month sub total as one extra production number?

I read it this way:

May = 1 Domestic, 1 Export

June = 1 Domestic, 0 Export ( not 1 Export as you quote )

July = 2 Domestic, 2 Export

August = 6 Domestic, 1 Export

September = 9 Domestic, 2 Export

( so total 19 Domestic and 6 Export versions by the end of September '69 ).

Alan T.

[HS30-H]

Kats,

I can see that the number on the car from your video film-capture starts with "060" - so I'm wondering if its "060 ACJ"?

In which case, the photo of the car with that number on it MUST surely be from the main test, and NOT the modified car that was sent over in late December by air? This is the same location / time as the other cine / video film that you took photos from - where they are all posing with their white hats. This shows two cars, and not one - so it must be the main test.

Those "2177" numbers must have been issued temporarily, and they changed to the other numbers - one of them "060 ACJ" during the test.

Alan T.

[HS30-H]

Originally posted by kats

I also made an interview to Mr.Miyate who was a chief of design inside of a body and a chassis of S30.The early head light case is made of FRP,this is his idea,also Mr.Matsuo had a same idea during his cray study.

Mr.Miyate was troubled with that headlight case,he could not find the best way to make.He even tried steel at first stage but it was not good.One day he was at a train staion,he saw a plastic vacume formed seat.He found an idea "ask a manufacture of the seat to help me".

The company is Kotobuki they make various plastic seat for the stadium and staition etc.

kats

Hi Kats,

Yes - "Issu no Kotobuki" ( Kotobuki translates are 'felicitation' or 'congratulation', and Issu as 'seating' or 'chair' ) made many of the other FRP parts for Nissan too.

They made most of the special parts for the ZG.

Alan T.