Philosophical discusion on build dates

[HS30-H]

Originally posted by kats

"Seisan shisaku"this car has a VIN number.They used this nomenclature for the very first car which has VIN.

Mr.Uemura and Mr.Osawa said these test cars "Seisan shisaku#14 & #15" was not HLS30-#14 & #15.

Nissan shatai counted all S30 models(Dom & EXpo) for it.

O.K,Like this,they made Kojyou shisaku first,these cars do not have a VIN.Nissan shatai made 3 S30s(2 Dom/1 Expo) as Koujyou shisaku.But I do not know which car(DOM or Expo)was Koujyou shisaku #1 in May 1969.

Then they made a car which has a VIN,this became a Seisan shisaku.

So,let's do cross-refferensing.

According to the production number data of 1969,you can count 3 s30s(2 Dom/1 Expo) in May and June.But these are Koujyou shisaku(do not have a VIN) as Mr.Uemura & Mr.Osawa told me.

11 S30s(8 Dom/3 Expo) were built in Jul & Aug,these were Seisan shisaku which have a VIN.So, Seisan shisaku #14 & #15 must built in Sep 1969.

If all Expo S30s up to Sep 1969 were HLS30,test cars"Seisan shisaku #14" must be HLS30-00004 & 00005.

According to Alan T's past post,HS30-00003 was made in Oct 1969 showing in the parts catalog(This photo is great!!!Alan,)

If HS30-00001 & 00002 were made before Oct 1969,these test cars "Seisan shisaku #14 & #15" must be HLS30-00002 & 00003.

kats

Hi Kats,

OK - so you think we can get pretty close to the true body numbers of Seisan Shisaku #14 & #15, but maybe not 100% certain?

To summarise, Seisan Shisaku #14 & #15 might be HLS30-00004 & HLS30-00005 - UNLESS two "HS30" RHD Export models were made before October 1969 - in which case Seisan Shisaku #14 & #15 would be HLS30-00002 & HLS30-000003......

Realistically, those two possible "HS30" VIN-prefixed cars would have to have been made before mid September 1969 ( at least ) in order for their existence to impact on the Seisan Shisaku quantity BEFORE the two North American test cars were made and freighted over to USA in time for the first few days of October.

Great stuff, Kats. Thank you.

Alan T.

[26th-Z]

Alan,

I arrive at the same conclusion and thank you for the explanation of the "extra" column in the production schedule photographs. I have all of photos you e-mailed me which led to my previous comments. Incredible as it may seem, I believe the test cars were HLS30-2 and 3. They had to be made prior to October.

Nissan Motor Corporation!!!!:stupid:

Were the cars crated and flown to California? I don't have a still shot of the video showing a license plate. None-the-less, excellent stuff. Research with the California Department of Motor Vehicles is called for to determine the tag issue. I find it hard to believe two cas would be licensed the same 2177.

[26th-Z]

Mark,

If I may beg permission to use kats' photo of his restored seat, I'm talking about the plastic corner guard screwed on to the seat frame. I don't know anyone other than kats who knows what those are. Even the low-serial-number gurus in Tampa have never seen them. I can't find a part number nor any reference to them anywhere. I used to have a set on Her Majesty.

They are not attached very well and when you plop down into the seat, the upper edge digs into your thigh. Of course, they break, as they are plastic. The pictures of the seats in my parts books illustrate them with no part reference. Her Majesty has authorized the restoration engineer to aggresively purchase a set.

[HS30-H]

Originally posted by 26th-Z

Were the cars crated and flown to California?

I don't have a still shot of the video showing a license plate. None-the-less, excellent stuff. Research with the California Department of Motor Vehicles is called for to determine the tag issue. I find it hard to believe two cas would be licensed the same 2177.

Hi 26th-Z,

Here's the cine / video clip still photo - posted by Kats a page back or so on this thread - showing only the first two numbers "06" from one of the two cars from the initial test.

I think it must be the initial test, as they are all wearing the white hats that they seem to have been presented with at the Datsun dealership.

Kats' photo:

[kats]

Hi 26th-Z and all of you,

I apologize that I made a big mistake.I have seen TWO different licences.NOT 3,I am sorry for this.

And I apologize my writing is not clear for you.I realized that I red again my post today,if I were you I would say ????

About lowest VIN, Alan T. you have got my intention.

Here are some confirmation and "explain another word"

Courtesy Alan T,I add some like this.Additional informations are based on an interview to Mr.Uemura & Mr.Osawa.

I read it this way:

May = 1 Domestic, 1 Export /They are Koujyou Shisaku #1 & #2

(Not for sure which is the first,they do not have a VIN)

June = 1 Domestic, 0 Export/This Dom Z is a Koujyou Shisaku #3

(This Dom Z also does not have a VIN)

July = 2 Domestic, 2 Export /They are Seisan Shisaku #1 to #4

(Not for sure the sequence,but they are the first Z which has a VIN.For the Exp model,it must be HLS30-00001 & HS30-00001,

or HLS30-00001 & HLS30-00002,or HS30-00001 & HS30-00002)

August =6 Domestic, 1 Export /They are Seisan Shisaku #5 to #11

(For the Exp model,it must be ...you can try)

Sept = 9 Domestic, 2 Export/They are Seisan Shisaku#12 to #22

(Seisan Shisaku #14 & #15 should be in this September.And it is obvious they are LHD as we can see.From this point,2 Exp model in this month must be Seisan Shisaku #14 & #15.So,They must be HLS30-00002 or 00003 or 00004 or 00005.)

( so total 19 Domestic and 6 Export versions by the end of September '69 ).

Is this a much better explanation?

Thank you,

kats

P.S. Zedrally,I found a page of your question.The VIN is different!

[kats]

Hi Zedrally,

Please see the VIN..

kats

[kats]

Hi,

I would like to translate this article from "CAR GRAPHIC(japan)"

"...especially they paid careful attention to reduce weight.They set a target weight for each compornent before they actualy made.It was really strict,even they had not decided a car name,they also set a target weight for emblems "gram unit" When they found something to be reinforcement,then they cut some steel to be lighten.These efforts gave its weight to be within limits which they set.Even more they have started their production line,the car have cut its weight slightly.

So many prototype cars were made,this is a special thing for them(staff),this is indeed for the Z.First, "SEKKEI Shisaku"1-2-3 stages produced 25 protos.Second,"GIJYUTSU Shisaku at the factory(this is Koujyou Shisaku as I mentioned)"produced 3 protos for each model(ex.PS30 & S30 & HLS30 or HS30)Third,"SEISAN Shisaku"

1-2 stages produced 33 protos(as I mentioned,they have a VIN and cross-refferencing,11 Dom & Exp cars in early Oct. are still SEISAN Shisaku)

Total 61 protos were made..."

continue a little more.

kats

[kats]

I forgot to mention,this article was printed for Jan 1st 1970.

continue,

"Also they made aprox.10 partial "White body" for crash test.They did crash test then they got lid of them. "

[kats]

Hi,

Now japan is 23:51,I have to go to bed.

I attached this for all of you.

This is a opening of a video "test driving".You can see the date of the test.

kats

[kats]

Next,there are member's names and this,this is clearly telling the fact that there were only 2 test cars and the one #14 has a manual trans and the other #15 has an auto trans.

kats

[abas]

Originally posted by 26th-Z

Mark,

If I may beg permission to use kats' photo of his restored seat, I'm talking about the plastic corner guard screwed on to the seat frame. I don't know anyone other than kats who knows what those are. Even the low-serial-number gurus in Tampa have never seen them. I can't find a part number nor any reference to them anywhere.

Chris

My april 1970 car has the 'remnants' of these seat guards on both driver and passenger side. I too couldn't find any part numbers and I will probably be looking at making a set ( if Kats will consent to use of his picture as a pattern.)

I have found that plastic rear car bumpers are approximately the right shape/curvature for the seat guards and I am just searching for the one at my local scrapyard that is the best fit for cutting the shape out of.

regards

Andrew

[26th-Z]

Thanks Alan, I just saw that plate. Evidently, we are seeing pictures of the same car in Canada and it makes me wonder what happened to the other one. Coincidence probably.

Thanks kats, your information is superb! I am clear about the production numbers now. It is fascinating to discover the process by which Datsun produced the first cars and brought the design forward. Your explanation of the Japanese terminology brings life to the story. The conversation about saving weight is quite interesting in that by saving weight and reducing the amount of material, cost is conserved as well. We have discussed this "value engineering" topic before, and it is testimony to the designers how well thought out the S30 was.

Andrew, count me in on the fabrication deal. Let me know if I can do anything to help. I was talking to Mike McGinnis from Banzai Motorworks the other day. He said it will take a strong willed person to restore a car to such standards when most of the show judges are not aware of such peculiarities.