Was the 240z designed for America?

[v12horse]

This is another philosophical topic that I take the blame for starting. What ever anyone says- we should agree (huge opinion. I am inpsired by the pictures in Brain Long's book, if you know what I mean.) that the 240z, 260 (early or late, 2+2 or 2 seater), 280z(2+2 or 2 seater), Fairlady Z( base, ZL, 2 seater, and 2/2), Fairlady 240z ( including the long and short nose), Fairlady Z432, and Fairlady Z432-R are all great cars. Some are different due to being for export or for the home market, but they are all great cars. Let's not try to say which one(s) is superior to the others, but enjoy the cars we have and look at them all as S30's (which they all are, except for S31, but still the same car for the most part). I don't know how or what I am trying to say, but, hmm we have different cars from diferent places around the world and like Matsuo said, the S30 was meant to be a worldly car. The US got the cars they got because of legalities and of what the North American's would love, and they loved and still love the 240, 260, and 280. Australia, Uk, and every other country besides the home market got the 240 and 260. Guess what, they love them too. Home market? You guessed it, they have big car clubs for these beauties just like many other countries.

Lachlan, I don't want you to think that I am mocking your words, because I am not. I am just trying to voice my opinion and what the function of me asking Matsuo the question that started this thread was. Matsuo told me that the S30 was to be a car accepted world wide, and like Alan said, each place got a different varient to conform to the needs of that area.

Here is another question. Why were the 240zg and the Z432 only for the home market? (I only mention this because if there are 2 z's that are the most sought after, I would think it would be these two, but this is only an opinion by many- not all.) I would assume that it was for homologation purposes, just as there is a long nose Fairlady Z (Z33) offered for the home market currently. Why? Homologation for racing.

These are just a few Ideas I have had, and I am not going to say that all S30's are equal. We all have our opinions, and I definately have mine. I hope this clears things up a little, but I can see it fogging things up even more as well.

I don't want to make generalizations or inaccuracies, so please correct me. Voice your opinion(s) too.

Errr, I don't know what more to say. I really think studying is getting to me.

*stepping off soap box*

Ben

[Bambikiller240]

I'm agreeing with Ben in that ALL iterations of S30 are great and variations in what each different country (or market) received don't really make one "better" than another. In the USA we got what we got for two main reasons, Gov't requirements and Nissan perceptions of what our market wanted in a car.

Matsuo-san's statement is good enough for me & I'll gladly let it go at that. He's the expert, who are we to argue the point?

[Alfadog]

Ben, I didn't think you were mocking my words at all! The only words of mine in this thread were two very small, smart-arse comments!

The point Alan is trying to make was Domestic market came FIRST for Nissan when designing it. That's why when some features had to be compromised (such as the handbrake position), the RHD position was the one they chose. That's all! No one is trying to say any car is BETTER than any other...... just trying to make a point because SOME people in the past have said that the Z is undeniably an American car, designed in Japan. That kind of ignorance is all anyone is battling!!

I agree with all you said Ben :classic:

[HS30-H]

Originally posted by Alfadog

...... just trying to make a point because SOME people in the past have said that the Z is undeniably an American car, designed in Japan. That kind of ignorance is all anyone is battling!!

Exactly.

This thread needed to exist. I'm very pleased that halz pointed out Matsuo san's quote ; that he actually wanted TWO handbrake lever positions. Now it will be in our archive and we can point to it whenever anybody says that they think the handbrake lever was supposed to be on the right hand side of the tunnel to cater for the LHD market, as has been implied in the past.

Sometimes dead horses need to be flogged.

Alan T.

[26th-Z]

Help!!! I'm trapped beneath a dead horse!!!

I thought this would be appropriate. From "Fairlady Z" translation by Brian and Miho Long; "Consequently, when Mr. Katayama came back from America and visited my department, the words he said made me determined to follow my dream. He stated that we could go on making cheap economy cars forever, but by doing so, we would never be able to move forward in export markets. Nissan, and Japan as a whole, needed something stunning, something original that would make foreign manufacturers sit up and take notice of us".

In the goddie bag from the National Convention was a book, "Turn Around - How Carlos Ghosn Rescued Nissan", David Magee. It contains some good reading about the Nissan corporate management technique. There comes to mind a clearer understanding of the period during Matsuo's tenure. How the design of the S30 may have been influenced by corporate politics and management techniques. You see all sorts of correlations when comparing the story of the Z.

So lets get this conversation really rolling and argue whether the Z was supposed to be a convertable and how AMERICAN laws turned the project in a GT direction. My friend, Jim, asked Matsuo why he didn't build a convertable and Matsuo exclaimed; "I tried to"!!!

[abas]

Originally posted by 26th-Z

Nissan, and Japan as a whole, needed something stunning, something original that would make foreign manufacturers sit up and take notice of us".

I had an interesting conversation with Carl Beck a short while back about how Nissan produced prototype V12 engined S30 cars, which only didn't go into production because of the fuel crisis in 1973. Now THAT would have been something. And it transpires there were attempts to make it a convertible too.

Can you imagine, a V12 convertible Z!!!!!

[Alfadog]

V12? I have only heard that they toyed (briefly) with the idea of the V8 from the Nissan President in the S30...

[Bambikiller240]

Originally posted by HS30-H

Exactly.

This thread needed to exist. I'm very pleased that halz pointed out Matsuo san's quote ; that he actually wanted TWO handbrake lever positions. Now it will be in our archive and we can point to it whenever anybody says that they think the handbrake lever was supposed to be on the right hand side of the tunnel to cater for the LHD market, as has been implied in the past.

Sometimes dead horses need to be flogged.

Alan T.

I respectfully agree with your statement above, Alan. All I was trying to point out is that after we accept the statements of Matsuo-san, what is is left ot agrue about?? Handbrake location works just fine where it is for "almost" everyone in the world. How much does it matter 30 years later where it was *supposed* to be? The beauty of the design is that even in the "wrong position" (from the designers standpoint) it still works well.

Isn't there another nit to be picked?

[v12horse]

Lachlan, I apologize for my assumptions. I shouldn't have let it all hang out like that. I was not trying to offend you or anyone for that matter. I totally agree with you and Alan on the people trying to say that the S30 was totally for the US market as being a hurtful and incorrect statement.

Alan, your thoughts and facts on the S30 initially starting and hinting at being a RHD car first, I agree with.

I am going to leave it at that for now. However, I would love to hear more about the possibilities of what the S30 could have been. Is there any really good pictures of the convertible (targa) Z out there? I can picture it, but I would really be curious to see exactly what Matsuo envisioned for the S30 cab. Why did it not become a reality? A V12 Z??? Darn, my sn could have been correct for an s30.

-Ben

[Zrush]

The S30 was designed for all who love a low cost, high perfomance sports car. I believe the Z changed the sports car industry in the US more than anywhere else though. European countries already had high end coupes. We could really only claim the Corvette in the 60's. The introduction of the Z car here in the 70's ruined the sales figures for Triumphs and Jaguars. The Z is one of the 10 most influential cars of all time. This is true no matter where you are in the world.

Vicky

[HS30-H]

Originally posted by Bambikiller240

......The beauty of the design is that even in the "wrong position" (from the designers standpoint) it still works well.

Isn't there another nit to be picked?

Hi Carl,

Can't we be labelled 'Sticklers' instead of 'Nit-Pickers'? I think it sounds less negative that way.

And I respectfully agree with you on the handbrake.

However, its ( bean-counter-decided ) location DOES illustrate wider issues. It is these issues that I would like to hear people air their opinions on.

What's wrong with a bit of nitpicking - if that's what it is? Intelligent debate - without confrontation - is a dying art. I'm in favour of trying to preserve it. As I think I've mentioned before on this forum, I'd like nothing better than to get around a table with most of you guys ( with a selection of the local beverages.... ) and talk about all this stuff. We'd probably have a very interesting conversation, no?

While there are people out there in the so-called "Z Community" ( whatever that is ) who are widely respected as experts and pundits, and yet call the Japanese home-market cars "irrelevant" ( yes - that's a real quote ) then I think there will be nits for sticklers to pick.

Let me ask a rhetorical question here. Indulge me for just a second:

When Ben asked Matsuo san the questions he asked, what do you think Matsuo san thought of him for asking them? I'm willing to bet that he thought that Ben was a very intelligent and thoughtful young man, and that he had asked some very pertinent and interesting questions. How many times has Matsuo san had a Westerner asking him questions like that? Answer: not very many, apparently. I bet he was impressed.

I'd like to think that Forums like this - and the threads we create and respond to - help to plant further seeds of knowledge. I don't think that people who disagree with a stilted version of the truth should just put up and shut up. Its clear that there are still HUGE gaps in our knowledge of the background story of these cars that we love.

Alan T.

[v12horse]

Alan, I too wonder what Matsuo was thinking when I asked the questions that I did? He was very talkative and he was telling me, and others, about the details of the S30 that many people would disregard. The hinges, the emblems, the non-belted radials, Kobe Sieko as an outside company, etc. I guess I will never know what he thought when asked so many questions on the design of the S30, but that is why this forum is great. I am so intrigued by the history of the Z, and I think many of us see the gaps in the history of the Zcar, and want to be able to learn and share what may be forgotten. There are no books about this kind of stuff, and the information that gets passed from one person to another on this forum about these things would make an outstanding book. I wish Matsuo san could read and reply to some of the discussions that go on here. I am sure he would be most intrigued.

This is a little off topic, but sort of the same. I was a judge at the convention, not knowing until the day before. It is a long story. I stated in the application that I had a little experience with judgeing from the MSA show (ballet) and another show (ballet). So they made me a judge. I was first going to have to judge S130's, and I said I am really not familliar so it would not be fair. They put me on the 240z daily driver class and I was judging with an "expert." He judged the exterior while I judged the interior. It was a lot of fun by the way. Anyways, now I will tell you all my story. I was in a conference room and there were all these other judges around. They were talking about different hoses, clamps, belts, batteries, etc. and if the cars didn't have them, mark points down. I was pretty overwhelmed. I thought that someday I would like to restore a Z back to oem specifications, and the extent they were talking about was a concours standard. I much rather find a non-abused S30 still in its stock form. Moreover, all I was hearing was 240, 260, 280, 300, 350. Never once did I hear Fairlady Z. Thanks to my smart arse mouth, thanks so much to the members of 240z.org, I brought up the question. "What about the Fairlady Z? Are they put in with the US market cars?" They said that since Fairlady Z's were not in the dealerships here, that the Fairlady Z was basically in the modified class. I was shocked, no offended is a better word. Right off the bat they thought I had one, I replied with a, " NO no no, I am just an enthusiast of them." I was now an alien, but that is okay.

I really wonder if there was a Fairlady Z as nice and bonified stock as other cars there, would they not judge it in the stock class? would it be docked or put in the modified class? One day, I hope some one challenges the convention with that, if not, I will. Give me 10 years.

Alan is right, there are huge gaps in the knowledge of these cars, but with this forum and the people on it, there is a potential to shorten those gaps, and in some ways the thinking that we do from participating in these "philosophical Z" threads is a great start to finding new knowledge. It is out there.

I will try not to be so passive, and through out my opinion on the table.

Ben