Thanks Will!

Some of our members might freak out at this, but here's a little personal info from me to you all. My son is in daycare. The mom is from Morrocco (sp) and the father is from Libya!! They have two daughters of their own yet they treat my son Alex better than I could have ever expected. They are strict Muslim's and I have absolutley no problem with that. The fact that my son is safe and sound from 8:00 am to 5:00 pm is what matters most to me.

FWIW,

Chris

I’m not freaked out at all by your choice of daycare provider. I think you chose a family that you feel will take very good care of your most precious possession, and I applaud you for being open minded enough to give them the chance to become acquainted with you as a person and American, and support them. I’m sure all people in their position communicate with family and friends back home as to how the average Joe treats them here. In my opinion you are being the perfect host/representative. I myself work daily with people from that region and find them honest, friendly, gracious, and devoted people, but thankful they can live in a country where they can live without fear of imprisonment or death for speaking their mind in public. After all, they certainly don’t want to wind up in 280z’s photo journal, now do they?

I think the people trying to influence him have misled 280z. They haven’t informed him that this issue over in the Middle East isn’t about religion, it’s about fanatical power and control over an area of the world that is capable of financing an effort to impose their beliefs and customs anywhere they please, especially here. They certainly aren’t going to convince us to embrace their jihad willingly. I’m under the impression that we Americans kind of like things the way they are here now, even with the many shortcomings. I would think that if 280z were over there and spoke the way he is allowed to here, there would be nothing left of him to photograph. But there is hope for him. I had very similar emotions concerning the Viet Nam war and, with age and experience, have come to the realization that because a man, or a group of men make mistakes, it doesn’t make them evil, no matter where there misinformation comes from. It makes them human. What matters is thier character and ethics.

OK, I'll get down off my soap box now.

(major snip)

I think the people trying to influence him have misled 280z. They haven’t informed him that this issue over in the Middle East isn’t about religion, it’s about fanatical power and control over an area of the world that is capable of financing an effort to impose their beliefs and customs anywhere they please, especially here. They certainly aren’t going to convince us to embrace their jihad willingly.........................

If this war is not about religion, why have so many innocent people of Middle Eastern extraction been victimized by the "Patriot Act"? It seems that "someone" thinks it's about religion.

Yes, the Middle East is capable of financing just about anything they wish to. They are also capable of governing themselves in what ever manner THEY choose. So why do we insist they live in a democracy, and try to stuff it down their throats? Much of what 280z says has been corroborated by people in the Pentagon, Intelligence Agencies, and the 911 Comission. He's not as misinformed as some people would like to think.

If we are so right in the path that our leaders have chosen, why doen't the majority of the rest of the world agree with what we are doing? Are we right and they are all wrong? Talk about a narrow-minded approach to things. (I'm talking about our government here, not anyone in the discussion) No wonder we are called Arrogant Americans!

Last but not least, in regard to mistakes made..........it all depends on IF they are really "mistakes" and not part of a hidden agenda to accomplish other things. Warnings were sounded about many of the "mistakes" by people in our own government, intelligence agencies, and military and yet the "mistakes" were implemented without regard to the warnings.

If this war is not about religion, why have so many innocent people of Middle Eastern extraction been victimized by the "Patriot Act"? It seems that "someone" thinks it's about religion.

I feel the "victimization", at whatever level it is occurring, is due to region origination, not due to spiritual beliefs. If little green men blow up the schoolyard, you question little green men.

Yes, the Middle East is capable of financing just about anything they wish to. They are also capable of governing themselves in what ever manner THEY choose.

Yes, they are capable, but not free to govern themselves. Why do you think Saddam received 100% of the votes in the last vote Iraq. It was a case of “vote for me or I’ll have your hand removed”. Period.

So why do we insist they live in a democracy, and try to stuff it down their throats?

No one is stuffing democracy down their throats. As far as I can tell, the interim leaders are wanting a democratic system for their country because, with all its flaws, it’s the best system devised so far. And these leaders are dodging bullets to see democracy succeed there, and those bullets aren’t coming from the average person there. They are from people who want to regain control of that country and people around that region who don’t want Iraq transformed and consequently influencing the countries they come from.

Now, if you have a better system of government, please let us know about it. There’s always room for improvement in all things.

If we are so right in the path that our leaders have chosen, why doen't the majority of the rest of the world agree with what we are doing? Are we right and they are all wrong? Talk about a narrow-minded approach to things. (I'm talking about our government here, not anyone in the discussion) No wonder we are called Arrogant Americans!

You can’t be everybody’s friend all of the time or please them all either. It’s a shame that it takes something like this to find out who our friends are. The ones who showed up confirmed their friendship; the ones who didn’t confirmed their convictions. And most of the main players who were bashing the US had good reason too. They were getting a little action on the side and we were interfering. I don’t necessarily think we’re right and they’re wrong. It’s not black and white. It’s a matter of drawing the line at a certain point. And that point came after 17 UN sanction violations. If you were a convict released on probation, how many violations of your probation do you think you’d get away with?

I feel the "victimization", at whatever level it is occurring, is due to region origination, not due to spiritual beliefs. If little green men blow up the schoolyard, you question little green men.

But you do not break down the front door of a peaceful family who has been living in the USA for over 10 years, has never been in any kind of trouble, own their own peaceful and lawful business, and who came to this country as political refugees to get away from the repression that you describe. You don't lock them (adults and children} in a federal Detention center without access to legal representation, withhold food and medical atention from them and keep them there indefinately. You don't force an American Citizen (born and raised here, but with an Arabic name) to strip naked in an airport for no other reason than their name sounds Arabic. Both situations have happened more than once. You don't send undercover police into a peaceful demonstration and allow them to MACE the peaceful protesters in order to incite a riot. You don't allow the same undercover police to infiltrate a group organizing a peaceful demonstration and have those officers suggest setting up fake bombs to scare the public, or to suggest that the demonstrators gang-up and attack the uniformed police along the parade route. All of this (and more) has been done under the name of the Patriot Act.

Yes, they are capable, but not free to govern themselves. Why do you think Saddam received 100% of the votes in the last vote Iraq. It was a case of “vote for me or I’ll have your hand removed”. Period.

Did anyone come into North America and "free" us from our oppressor? What happened the last time we tried to export our way of governemnt to another country?

I am not a fan of Saddam, but there are many people in Iraq who do not want the form of government that we have chosen for them. Are there any other democracies in the region? NO. Is this not a foreign concept to their culture? YES! Remember, these people are from a far different culture than ours, they have different beliefs than ours. We should look at it from their viewpoint.

No one is stuffing democracy down their throats. As far as I can tell, the interim leaders are wanting a democratic system for their country because, with all its flaws, it’s the best system devised so far. And these leaders are dodging bullets to see democracy succeed there, and those bullets aren’t coming from the average person there. They are from people who want to regain control of that country and people around that region who don’t want Iraq transformed and consequently influencing the countries they come from.

Now, if you have a better system of government, please let us know about it. There’s always room for improvement in all things.

I must diagree. I think we are forcing it upon them. The leaders of the intrim government are dodging bullets because many of their own people do not want this process to continue. Yes, there are people from other countries fighting against us in Iraq. That should tell you something. Not only are we failing to acheive our goal in Iraq, we are making more enemies in other countries. The "plan" (if you can really call it a plan) is FAILING on many levels.

Democracy works relatively well here (I'm relatively satisfied with it, but there sure as hell is room to improve!), but that is absolutely no guarantee that it will work or is appropriate in Iraq or anywhere else. And why should we care if there is democracy in Iraq? Our executive branch doesn't seem to care if there is a democracy in North Korea, China, Russia, or countless other countries around the world who oppress their citizens. Interesting how this one country was "chosen" to receive the gift.

You can’t be everybody’s friend all of the time or please them all either. It’s a shame that it takes something like this to find out who our friends are. The ones who showed up confirmed their friendship; the ones who didn’t confirmed their convictions. And most of the main players who were bashing the US had good reason too. They were getting a little action on the side and we were interfering. I don’t necessarily think we’re right and they’re wrong. It’s not black and white. It’s a matter of drawing the line at a certain point. And that point came after 17 UN sanction violations. If you were a convict released on probation, how many violations of your probation do you think you’d get away with?

Perhaps people should ask the question, Why do these countries not agree with our stance? Are we right all the time? Are they wrong all the time? We are viewed in a different light by other countries than how we perceive ourselves. Not all of the countries who feel we are wrong in this situation were benfiting through the backdoor. Some were, to be sure, but not all. By far, not all. Take a look around the world. We are rapidly running out of friends. There is a reason.

Nap time, G'night

Marc , I don't appreciate you calling me an asshole, baby killer or a $^!# eater. But as Americans me and you both have the right to campaign, support and vote as we see fit, thats how things are changed. If you dads company went under it will join the many that do including mine, don't feel so special that we need to hear that. As far as the 100 stupid people who told you why to vote they way they choose , maybe just maybe your choice of words just like the way you used them in the thread is what kept you from changing their minds and that is what campaigning is. I doubt you also realize how unselfish it is to give your life protecting the wonderful right you seem to enjoy, the right of free speech. Talk as you may but don't call people things they aren't I take it very personally considering the people I have lost to protect your rights. I actually hate writing such replys in threads

GOOD BLOODY GRIEF !!!!!!!!!!,

This IS the Funnybone forum isn't it ??????????

Jeff,

Methinks we have an eighteen year old who needs to grow up a little and get some maturity behind him before he forms such strong opinions and to ensure that those opinions are HIS and not passed down through the generations as so often happens. Perhaps a visit to "The Wall" might do him some good. The names of some of MY mates are on OUR wall.

The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

YOO HOO, CAA----AARL,

Mate, all we've heard in the land Under Down Under recently has been about the American election.

Noww, I have some questions I'd like answers too and the obvious choice of a highly intelligent, well read, man of the world to put these questions to is ...................YOU.

I've heard references to the various "Electoral Colleges".

Is that where politicians of all persuations learn to tell lies whilst keeping a straight face or;

How to talk for hours without actually saying anything or;

Be trained in the ability to make promises worded in such a away that they can't be held to those promises or;

Do citizens who intend to vote in elections attend in order to understand the electoral system or;

Learn how to vote.

Now,

We always hear the President refered to as George W. Bush.

Is that George Dubblewe Bush, George UU bush, George Double You Bush, or;

Couldn't mummy and daddy agree on William, Walter, Wobert etc. so decided on just a "W" ????????????????

Just trying to add a little levity to a thread that seems to be getting a bit serious.

Your sickcerely,

Rick the Wrecker, aka The Blunder from Down Under.

YOO HOO, CAA----AARL,

I've heard references to the various "Electoral Colleges".

Is that where politicians of all persuations learn to tell lies whilst keeping a straight face or;

How to talk for hours without actually saying anything or;

Be trained in the ability to make promises worded in such a away that they can't be held to those promises or;

Do citizens who intend to vote in elections attend in order to understand the electoral system or; Learn how to vote.

Sadly, by the time politicians are sujected to the vagaries of the Electoral college, they have all become well versed in all of the things you have mentioned. And even more sadly, most of the citizens who do vote (51%) don't understand the Electoral sytem, and as judged by recent examples, they haven't learned how to vote well either.

We always hear the President refered to as George W. Bush.

Is that George Dubblewe Bush, George UU bush, George Double You Bush, or;

Couldn't mummy and daddy agree on William, Walter, Wobert etc. so decided on just a "W" ????????????????

In reality his name is George Walker Bush, though he's more commonly called "Dubya", which is how the "W" is pronounced with a Texas accent. It also just seems to fit the pronunciation challenged little worm.

CAA---AARL,

Please humour this poor, uneducated, unsophisticated Ocker by explaining to him just what IS an "Electoral College". (An "OCKER" is an uncultured Aussie bloke).

Rick.

280z,

Glad to see you aren't afraid to give your opinion. You might want to couch it in a more palatable format though(maybe dispense with most of the four letter stuff), so that people don't respond to you with angry knee jerk reactions. Just don't ever let anyone intimidate you(the erroneous "I'm older so that makes me extremely wise and at 18 your views can't possibly be as valid as mine") into keeping quiet. Your views are as deserving of respect as the next man's, but that also applies in reverse. Spout on. Victor.

I've got a bar of soap to use on 280Zs mouth if I had a chance. Of course Bush wants to unite the country---get everyone seeing things as Carl Rove, Ralph Reed, d*** Cheny, Pat Robertson, and the folks at Baylor see them. Bush and Rove hoodwinked everyone in middle America to think that moral issues were the most important issuses, while killing them with tax cuts to the wealthy, deteriorating education conditions, unemployment and low wages, rotton economy and obcene corporate control of the nation. And a continuing war in Irac. Maybe even a new one--I can see Rummy and Wolfy rubbing their hands together now.

Hey Carl, you may have converted me.

Carl, you have four years to get ready! You have most of what you need already, a sounding board of advisors, the support of at least one Australian, Somebody in Washington behind you(Zwolley), and a firm grasp on many of the issues, and most of all a wicked sense of humor!

Just 20 million or so in funding, and a slogan to go!

-this is the funny bone right?

Will

Was that a joke?

Note to DNC. You had the most vulnerable incumbent President in history and you could not deliver. If you want change put up a canidate that is likeable and electable and more moderate like Clinton was. You strayed away from what put Clinton in office. You outspent the Republicans 2 to 1. George Soros threw his fortune in the Kerry mix. You had the liberal media 100% behind you trying their best to influence a national election. I heard Katie Couric was wearing black yesterday and today.

Marc Cooper sums it up the best.

http://marccooper.typepad.com/marccooper/2004/11/the_democrats_h.html