Newbie needs help (opinions on roof damage)

[RichieP]

Hi there everyone! I've been hanging around this site for a long time as a guest and have found it very informative - there's a tremendous amount of knowledge around here. I just wish my first post could be on a happier subject...

I own a 1971 240Z (the car is a full UK-spec car, although it did not reach England until 73 and has a JDM serial number beginning S30 - another topic entirely!) . Unfortunately, last week while it was in storage at my parent's house - hiding for the winter from the salt gritters - my Dad's garage shelves randomly collapsed. Whilst the shelves themselves missed the car, their contents, mostly lots of large heavy books didn't. The roof over the driver's door (passenger door to you LHD types) has been heavily creased and dented with a number of cracks in the paint where stretching has occurred around the dents. The rear quarter also copped an impact, putting a 6-7 inch crease into it and the rear spoiler was slightly cracked.

Basically I'd like some opinions from any experienced bodywork types on the likely approaches to fixing the problems. How effectively would a skilled body man be able to remove the damage or am I looking at a good chance of needing a new roof skin to really sort it out.

This was all a major blow as I was planning to have all the money and resources in place to have a full bare metal respray at the end of next year with some new metal (rear arches etc.). Its beginning to look like it might be worth moving the whole project forward - although this will probably mean a gradual drip-drip of work to finish the car off after the bodyshop over most of next year. I'm pretty gutted really....

Photos can be seen at my gallery on the UK Z Club's site at http://www.zclub.net/gallery/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=533

There are plenty of pics of the car in happier times as well as plenty other UK Zeds (or Zees if you're American) for those who are interested.

Any input would be appreciated,

Thanks!

[MikeW]

It's hard to say from the picture of the quarter panel but I'd say that the roof can be fixed fairly easily. My roof had some waves in it (probably from someone sitting on it, etc.) before I had it painted a while back. The guy who did the work whacked it a few times from beneath with a 2x4 to get it close to the right curvature and then slowly worked on getting it perfect. The roof is easy to access from beneath and it's easy to see you're progress while working on it. You'll need a new headliner and paint work but you won't be able to see it afterwards.

[HS30-H]

Welcome to the site Richie,

Sorry to hear about the damage to your car.

I think you'll find that a replacement roof panel is not necessary, and that a good body man will be able to sort out that damage with a minimum of filler.

I know its "another topic entirely" - but I'm interested in this quote:

I own a 1971 240Z (the car is a full UK-spec car, although it did not reach England until 73 and has a JDM serial number beginning S30 - another topic entirely!)

How can the car be a '240Z' if it has an 'S30' VIN prefix? Its either a Fairlady Z or Fairlady Z-L, and if it has an L24 engine now then its certainly not the engine that it left the factory with. I doubt very much that its "full UK-spec".

Sounds like another 'G.I. Bride' to me.

Cheers,

Alan T.

[jmark]

I agree with Mike & Alan a good body man will make her look good as new.

[RichieP]

Hi Alan,

You said:

''How can the car be a '240Z' if it has an 'S30' VIN prefix? Its either a Fairlady Z or Fairlady Z-L, and if it has an L24 engine now then its certainly not the engine that it left the factory with. I doubt very much that its "full UK-spec".

Sounds like another 'G.I. Bride' to me.''

Sorry about my untechnical method of quoting!! (how do you do it properly?)

You're probably right there! In terms of physical appointments, engine, mechanicals, badging, interior, basically everything, the car is a late-1971 240Z. All except for the S30 serial number. According to the car's documentation it has a confirmed manufacture date of 1971 (easy to check online via the serial number lists) but it wasn't registered in the UK until 1973 (hence it sports an 'L' registration). A couple of theories were knocking around the Z Club about it. I'm sure you know Pete MacDonald - he speculated that it began life as a Fairlady that possibly made its way to the UK as you suggested as a ''GI Bride'' on one of the US bases. Subsequently it was transformed into a full 240Z. The other theory was that the shell served as a replacement for a trashed UK car early in the 70s - Pete said that Nissan were loath to import new shells at that time. All rather clouded really - makes for an interesting talking point though.

[Gav240z]

Richie welcome to the club sorry to see that damage it must break your heart. As the others said it shouldn't require a replacement roof and it looks to be accessible from the other side of the roof and can be tapped out again.

To quote properly at the bottom of each persons reply is a Quote button use that to reply rather than post reply or quick reply.

it will have

and [/Quote REMOVE THIS TEXT] end brackets what ever is between the two signifies what will appear to be quoted.

Gavin,

PS: if it has an S30 chassis prefix I'd say it was a fairlady.

[Alfadog]

Interesting that it has all of the "Datsun 240Z" badges on though, and the UK indicators. Did the owner who brought it there change all of this? And did the original L20 die, to be replaced with an L24?

What does it say on the glovebox?

P.S. Nice wheels!

[HS30-H]

Hi Richie,

Please try to avoid any question of replacing the roof panel on your car. I had this done on my very first Z using a new roof panel from Nissan ( the original roof had been butchered for a sunroof ) and it is a BIG job that needs to be carried out with the utmost of care and skill.

Removal of the headlining and header trim on the damaged side of the roof will allow a skilled panel beater to access the area that needs to be worked on. I can see from the pics that it is eminently fixable. I had very similar damage ( caused by collapsing scaffolding ) on a Porsche 356 repaired with excellent results. Totally invisible. Just choose your body shop well, and don't disturb that roof panel!

Regarding the identity of the car, I would bet all my furniture on it not being a 'replacement' bodyshell. It will of course have been a 'private' import ( we call them 'grey' imports now ) rather than an official Datsun UK import, and 95% of these in the UK were connected to American armed forces personnel bringing their personally-purchased cars over from Japan with them when they were moved from Japan to the UK ( RHD market to RHD market ). Many of these cars were sold off privately in the UK before the personnel were sent back to the USA. My 1970 Fairlady Z-L based project car is one of these.

I'm interested that you feel you have identified the date of manufacture from a list published on the net. Where is this? I have never seen a VIN number list on the net that covered the home market cars with any accuracy. Indeed, some of the most widely used internet lists are total rubbish when it comes to non-USA market cars. Comparing your 'S30' prefixed VIN to the numbers on these lists is not going to get you anywhere.

"Converting" to UK-spec is easier if you are starting out with a Fairlady Z-L; just about all the components are already in place except for the L24 engine. I presume this is what has been done in your case. However, you may not realise just how many differences there are between your car and a typical UK-market car of the same period. Its very interesting to compare the differences and details. I wonder how far you have looked into this?

If I were you I would much rather trust a fully cross-referenced study of parts manufacturing dates ( hidden all over your car ) than any web-based list.

Cheers,

Alan T.

[RichieP]

However, you may not realise just how many differences there are between your car and a typical UK-market car of the same period. Its very interesting to compare the differences and details. I wonder how far you have looked into this?

What sort of things should we be looking at?

(This is Richie's wife!)

[daddz]

Alan,

I would also be curious as to how comprehensive a list of parts we could/should be studying with regard to these cars. More importantly would you mind sharing such a list with us?

[beandip]

RicheP , Good news and bad news . Of cource you know you will need to replace the headlinner , not that big a deal and do some repainting. Which you aluded to in your post, thats the bad news. The good, the roof is not going to be that big of a problem , if you use a craftsman to do the work . Here in the states most body shops are really pannel replacement shops. There are still real craftpersons that do the quality metal work and this is the type of shop you should seek . The quarter pannel will be the hardest to repair but mostly because of the lack of access from the backside. However agan a good craftperson will be able to do the repair with little if anny filler, the same for the roof. I had damage to my roof on my '73Zed , some one in the past had sat on the roof and they left butt prints just above the windscreen on both sides of the roof. Plus the roof looked like a sack of potatoes with all the lumps and bumps. My friend , who showed me how, and I did the repair , used vary vary little filler and a lot of tapping and it turned out perfect. So there is light at the end of the tunnel. All the best to you both. Gary

[HS30-H]

What sort of things should we be looking at?

(This is Richie's wife!)

Alan,

I would also be curious as to how comprehensive a list of parts we could/should be studying with regard to these cars. More importantly would you mind sharing such a list with us?

Rather than risk having to write halfway into next week, its probably better in this particular instance to concentrate on the car in question.

First of all, we know its either a Fairlady Z ( 'S30-S' model ) or Fairlady Z-L ( 'S30' model ) as the VIN prefix stamped into the firewall has been reported as being "S30". I'd be interested to know the rest of the stamping ( the body serial number ) but can well understand if you prefer that this is not publicised. Pinning down whether it started life as either a Z or Z-L is fairly easy if you cross-reference the trim and equipment levels on the car - but remember that both the Z and Z-L used the same 'S30' VIN prefix stamping ( use the SEARCH function for reference, as we have covered this subject on here many times in the past ).

Ordinarily when I have come across cars that are reputed to be non UK-market RHD cars, the first thing I do is look at the VIN. Since we know this is an 'S30' VIN it immediately identifies it as as Japanese domestic market model; the 'S30' VIN prefix cars were not sold for official Export markets. Don't forget that it could well also have been an 'HS30' VIN prefix, as Japan got the L24-engined models from late 1971 - which many people do not seem to understand.

Second thing I would look at would be the seat brackets welded to the floor. The Japanese market cars had 'extra' L-shaped front brackets that enabled the seat runners to be mounted in TWO positions ( which explains that extra pair of holes in the rear brackets on Export cars ). These brackets are nice, easily accessible clues to the original market of the car.

As for other details relating to exact ( or at least approximate ) build date of the car, you will need to start looking for the inspection 'ken' marks, and cryptic manufacturer marks on individual components. These are everywhere and nowhere! Try looking at the rear of components such as the ashtray, speedo, tacho, rear lamps, seats, etc etc. For an S30-series Z, you might spot numbers that relate to the Japanese year system ( based on the incumbent Emperor's reign ), and since Emperor Hirohito ( Emperor 'Showa' ) ascended the throne in 1925, you will see numbers such as 44 ( 1969 ), 45 ( 1970 ) and 46 ( 1971 ) along with a month and day.

Also, as a little bit of fun, take a look under the dash at the pressed card base of the glovebox. The Factory-applied chalk scribblings under here can be very amusing ( most UK-market cars I have seen have "ENG" chalked underneath ). See what yours says.....

What's different between an S30 and UK-market 'Export' HS30 of the same build period? LOTS! Once you start getting into it, you'll see literally hundreds of tiny detail differences. Major stuff is instrumentation and wiring; if you are lucky you will still have your original main and engine bay harnesses, which were tagged with their part numbers and a date of manufacture too. Looking at this kind of detail will help to discern whether the replacement bodyshell story stands up to scrutiny ( I'm very sceptical about this one ) as a replacement loom is very unlikely.

It would be much easier to go through all the differences with the car in front of us, and armed with a couple of the Japanese market parts manuals. Maybe I'll see you at a show or event somewhere at some point in the future? It would be fun to go through it together.

I'm still concerned about the build date though. Are you sure you have this pinned down with the proper level of certainty? I still think you could be a few months out.......

Cheers,

Alan T.