Your thoughts wanted, preservation/restoration?

[26th-Z]

I think this is a BRE spook.

[daddz]

My turn to jump in.

I have noticed that in the course of my life I have tended to swing on both sides of this issue. As I get older I really do appreciate those that can preserve a car in 'original' condition especially in the face of life's events and natural disasters. I also like a Z with larger than stock wheels and tires and period correct pieces that speak to what era the car emanates from. A few years ago while watching one of those 'car shows' a piece was televised depicting a mid year Corvette (C2) undergoing restoration. The restorer was bringing the car back to the condition as it rolled off the assembly line replete with a piece of carpet that would have been trimmed as the car proceeded down the assembly line and then tossed under the passenger seat. I have also thought that an unrestored original 'barn find' condition car has a certain appeal about it as well. Case in point a few years ago in an issue of Classic and Sportscar there was a blurb written about a Toyota 2000GT that was found in South Africa after many years of living outside and when auctioned off it managed to fetch about $70,000. There's also that story of the ex-racing XKE found lathered in duck oil and that Cobra Daytona Coupe.

I say as long as your having a good time do what you will with the car but, don't let it go the crusher and keep in mind that whatever you do attrition is always chasing old cars.

[ricksaia]

I am almost finished with my 1970 Z. I converted to a 5-speed with the r200 rear end. I also have two engines. One is the original matching numbers 2.4 liter. The other is a 2.8 liter with a modified p90 head, warm cam and headers. If I ever sell it some day, someone will get two engines. My question is, will it be worth more because of this?

[Carl Beck]

I am almost finished with my 1970 Z. I converted to a 5-speed with the r200 rear end. I also have two engines. One is the original matching numbers 2.4 liter. The other is a 2.8 liter with a modified p90 head, warm cam and headers. If I ever sell it some day, someone will get two engines. My question is, will it be worth more because of this?

Hi ricksaia / everyone:

I think the answer is that it won't be worth less, whereas it would be worth less if you didn't have the original engine. Just how much less depends on the overall condition of your Z to begin with.

#1......Let's say that you had a 1970 DATSUN 240-Z. It's a one owner car with a known history. Bought and kept in AZ (Arizona is very dry)... it is completely rust free, never wrecked with 57K miles. It's Silver, no cracks in the dash, interior all but perfect.. Always maintained in top condition, you could get in it and drive to New York without a problem. (all hoses and belts are less than two years old, the brakes and clutch are fine etc.). There are only a couple very small stone chips and a couple of very minor door dings, but the paint is bright and shinny, as is all chrome. The frame rails are straight and rust free, as are the floorboards...

That car would sell easily for $8,500.00 to $9,500.00 today (slightly less in California). It might take a couple of weeks, or even a couple of months to locate the right buyer... but he/she is out there now looking for this car. One might put an asking price of closer to $10,500.00 as someone might even pay that...

#2.......Now let's say you have that same car... with the exception that you have an L28 in place of the original matching number engine... and you no longer have the engine. Now it is a $4,500.00 car...

The people that buy Collectable Classic Cars... simply will not buy a car that is no longer capable of being "Restored". They will pay top money for one that is... and they will simply pass on anything that isn't.

The person that will buy the car without it's original engine, is the person that simply wants a nice 240-Z to drive, to take to local club meetings/gatherings. The person that loves the 240-Z's but has no desire to ever "Restore" one... Or the person that wants a nice car to modify... These people will usually not be willing to pay anything close to $9,500.00 for a project car or a daily driver. Actually this car is too nice for them... unless they can steal it.

#3......Now same car, only with the original engine not installed but available... Good running L28, 5spd. and R200 presently installed ...$5,500.00 to $6,500.00. $2000.00 deduction for taking the risk that the original L24 won't need to be rebuilt along with the work to reinstall it.

The other difference is... you can sell #1 fairly quickly, you can sell #3 for slightly less money and it will take more time to sell. #2 will take the longest time to sell.... unless you lower the price.

Now lets say that with "YOUR" car, you didn't keep it a factory color, you have a dash cover, the carpet is shot, the seats need to be redone... but it has a pretty paint job (which doesn't match the paint under the hood) and it runs well. Let's also say that it has a bit of bondo where the rust used to be, including the floorboards!!.. it needs a few mechanical details taken care of... and the chassis has about 190K miles on it.... it really won't matter a lot if you have the original engine or not.

Just what I see in the market...

Carl

Carl Beck

Clearwater,FL USA

http;//ZHome.com

[eulb1]

Great perspective Carl.

[26th-Z]

Carl,

I think your #1 description sounds more like the "high retail" and "good to excellent" condition. In that case, I would refer you to the Wall Street Journal and NADA guides. A 1970 model year with only 57,000 miles would be well past the $15,000 point. Just look at what happened to Burt's car.

In my opinion, "here's the original engine sitting on the floor over here" has no value at all. Maybe tempting value, but parts in a box have no value to the sale of a car.

[ricksaia]

Excellent info Carl. The car is fully restored (body taken down to metal and painted the original orange everywhere), both engines rebuilt and the car has had two previous owners, total of 87,000 miles. Will use the 2.8 while I drive but it sounds like I should put in the 2.4 to sell. Your thoughts.

[MikeW]

Maybe tempting value, but parts in a box have no value to the sale of a car.

What if the parts included a spare complete deck lid, a spare door, a spare interior from a '73, brand new Nissan door skins, a brand new Nissan front valance and turn signals, brand new side marker lights, a brand new set of metal emblems including chromed Z quarter emblems and a brand new with the Nissan part sticker clear hatch glass.

Wouldn't that be worth something?

[Zrush]

Same comment along the line of MikeW. I know of a gentleman who owns a documented Black Pearl Z but doesn't want to put the BP pin-stripes on the vehicle because he's afraid they will peel, which eventually they will, and he won't be able to get another set. Does this take away from the value of the Pearl because the pinstripping is in a bag rather than on the car?

Vicky

[JLPurcell]

What if the parts included a spare complete deck lid, a spare door, a spare interior from a '73, brand new Nissan door skins, a brand new Nissan front valance and turn signals, brand new side marker lights, a brand new set of metal emblems including chromed Z quarter emblems and a brand new with the Nissan part sticker clear hatch glass.

Wouldn't that be worth something?

Mike, I will be looking forward to Chris's reply to your question. I would have this to say. If the car is in need of the parts listed then the value is minimal. If not then it would be wise for the seller to sale the parts independent of the car. From my experience anytime you sale parts in a group or along with a car the value of the parts is diminished. Now as for a matching original engine block, I place value in that if the buyer plans a "restoration" of the car. JLP

[MikeW]

Mike, I will be looking forward to Chris's reply to your question.

Me too but keep in mind that my post was really in jest. Read this one for clarification:

http://new.classiczcars.com/forums/showpost.php?p=97764&postcount=57

[26th-Z]

You got me! (from the battle line of psychotic automotive restoration)

I'm sitting here reading the e-mail notice of Mike's post and thinking; "well that's what came with 27"??!!!?!!?? "What the hell is he talking about?" Ok....make me laugh!

The point I was trying to make was that it is not wise to buy a valuable car that happens to be in boxes. Or The value of the car is the car, not a dissassembled car. Or should I say; "That's what a wise person would tell you". I know of two Lotus's up in Clearwater - completely apart - that I would buy. But I have an excuse. I'm sick.

You should see what came in the morning e-mail. A real test of my illness. Then there is the fire truck on eBay...and during that conversation, I found a 1936 / 1937 Datsun (perhaps Datson?) 2-door roadster for sale. Oh, I'm all ate up!

As far as 27 is concerned, the spare parts thing didn't make the deal for me. And I didn't pay a lot of money for the Princess either. But you get burned on the stuff that is in the box. 27 came with a grill...for a 260Z. The seats are no good. I ended up buying another deck lid. Not to diss "ricksaia", but lets say you are looking at a car and "Oh, BTW, the original engine is over there and is included". You think; "oh good, I can make this car matching numbers". You get it all home and find a burned piston and scored block. I guess the thing to say is that the parts that came with 27 just made the rust taste sweeter.