gotta sell my 69 fairlady

[alg]

I don't mean to offend, but I think that a 5spd wasn't offered in the original 240z because the North American Market at the time swayed more towards Automatic. And the manual transmission cars of the late 60's were either 3 or 4 spd. The other reason for offering a 5 spd was fuel economy. Back then in North America fuel economy wasn't a big issue.

Alex

[Bambikiller240]

Well, the majority of 60's and 70's Sports cars (of any kind) were not sold equipped with automatics (Auto'a were offered, but manual transmissions were more popular). Nissan offered automatics in cars manufactured from 08/71, but the majority of cars were still sold with manual transmissions. Road and Track (and other enthuisiast magazines) pointed out that lack of a 5 speed quite early on, and even if Nissan didn't acknowledge the demand, a lot of people were clamoring for it. Perhaps they (Nissan) were too busy meeting rapidly changing US Emission laws, or something else was in play, but there was a strong desire for a 5 speed, and you are right that it wasn't for fuel economy reasons. It was largely for performance reasons.

[Zrush]

I showed Ol Yeller a pic of the fairlady and it was love at first sight. I think she's lonely. Would make a nice addition to my collection. Hey Chris, what do you think???? I'd love to take her home and give Ol '69 some TLC. Will see what happens: need to tak to the boss about this one!

Scott : :devious:

[26th-Z]

A couple of comments:

Fuel economy was a very large concern in America during the '70s. I'll point to the "Datsun Saves" add campaign. Americans waited in line to buy gasoline in 1973/4 and the president told us to turn off our Christmas lights in order to conserve oil. The national speed limit was reduced to 55mph.

Scott / Vicky,

I don't think I can voice my enthusiasm more!

[Bambikiller240]

Very true Chris, but the desire for a 5 speeed preceded the "gas crisis" of 73/74 by a few years. Once the price of gas rose, and the availability of it declined, the 5 speed would have been (was) desirable for both economy and performance.

[NovaSS]

Im not sure but I dont think the 4 and 5 speed has the same spread in ratios. I was under the impression the 5 speed has a lower first gear to make up for the smaller motor in the Fairladys, remeber they only had a 2000 cc 6 cylinder.

[HS30-H]

I'd say that the main reasons the USA / North American market 'HLS30-U' model was equipped with a 4-speed instead of a 5-speed were first of all COST savings, and secondly the perceived lack of sophistication of the potential market ( whether that was correct or not ).

Don't forget that the HLS30-U model also had different ( softer ) spring rates and different ( softer ) damper rates in comparison to all other market models, and - initially at least - no rear Anti Roll Bar ( despite the fact that these were a part of the original design ). The HLS30-U also had a 'softer' front Anti Roll Bar in comparison to all other market models.

This idea that all the other market models "needed" the 5-speed to compensate for a lack of power and torque is complete nonsense. Having a 5-speed transmission in that period was something of a luxury, and was still seen as rather fancy and exotic. A close ratio overdrive transmission was an essential part of the sporting drive, with the first four ratios nice and close for fun and the overdrive ratio available for high speed cruising at constant speeds. The fact that many of the other ( mainly European ) sports / GT models pitched at the USA market at the time were also equipped with 4 speeds should tell us more about the USA market than the cars themselves. Many of these cars came with 5 speeds in other markets.....

Did the non-USA export-market '240Z' models have a 5-speed and 3.9 ratio diff to compensate for a lack of torque? Did the 432 and 432R have a 5-speed and 4.44 diff ratio to compensate for a lack of power? No. They had them because the buyers of such vehicles expected and wanted a close ratio 5 speed as part of the sports / GT car experience.

My everyday-driver Alfa Romeo 156 has a close ratio 6 speed transmission. Does anybody seriously think this is to 'compensate' for something lacking? Do any modern cars have four speed transmissions? I can't think of one.

There's a strong case to suggest that the HLS30-U was a 'dumbed down' sports car aimed at a market that was perceived ( perhaps mistakenly, I'd say )

not to require the same level of sporting character as other markets at that time. It seems that most owners of such cars have a hard time coming to terms with that fact.

Nevertheless this 'dumbed down' sports car sold like hot cakes in its intended market. So maybe they got it right overall? Call it how you want to call it.

The Japanese home market got a big choice of models, specs and optional parts right from the beginning of sales. The cheapest 'base model' Fairlady S30-S was equipped with a 4-speed and suitable diff ratio, with a 5-speed as an extra cost option. All other models were equipped with a 5 speed and suitable diff ratio, with the 4 speed available as an option.

You'd have to say that a similar choice of models and specs would have been popular in the USA. Imagine if an official sharpened-up model for the serious enthusiast was available off the showroom floor in the USA; something like Car and Driver magazine's "240 Omega" could have been the perfect choice for the serious sporty driver at the time.

Anyone who has driven an early Fairlady with L20A and 5 speed / 3.9 diff combo will know that it is a really nice package. It is irritating to see and hear people who have never even seen one of these cars in the flesh - let alone driven one - implying that they are in some way odd-ball models or are impaired by a matter of 400 cubic centimetres.

[sblake01]

I think that Mr. K et. al. mispercieved the desires of the US market, as you said, but in retrospect, it really didn't matter. The Z would have sold at a higher price, considering what else was comprable at the time. They couldn't keep them in the showrooms as it was. I had to wait 6 weeks to get my 70. I would have bought whatever they had. There is no doubt in my mind that stock L20A would run cirlces around a stock L24. But if the intent was to sell cars here based on the their preception of what the US wanted, then, as you say, they got it right.

[NovaSS]

Do you happen to know ratios of the early 5 speed compared to the 4 speed? I keep finding conflicting numbers.

As for the performance of the 2000 cc vs the 2400 cc, it made a differance. This Fairlady was raced a few times in 1978 at Summit Point, just for some practice laps ,stock against a few other 240z. The 240s walked away from it in the straights, even after switching drivers. Thats why the header was later installed with some minor carb work, just so it could keep up with other club members.

That is why I was wondering if the ealry 5 speed had different ratios , to cover the lack of performance (?) over the 240z

He later picked up a 2800 engine out of a car that fell off the back of a car carrier with 3 miles on it. It was going to be installed as a "sleeper package" but he never got around to it. That engine is still laying around also.

[HS30-H]

Do you happen to know ratios of the early 5 speed compared to the 4 speed? I keep finding conflicting numbers.

....That is why I was wondering if the ealry 5 speed had different ratios , to cover the lack of performance (?) over the 240z.

5 Speed ratios for 1969 & 1970 Fairlady Z-L model ( FS5C71-A transmission ):

1st = 2.957

2nd = 1.858

3rd = 1.311

4th = 1.000

5th = 0.852

R = 2.922

Diff ratio = 3.9:1

You keep making the assertion that a 5 speed transmission was fitted to "cover the lack of performance over the 240Z". I'd like to remind you that the Fairlady Z 432 and 432R both had exactly the same transmission ratios as the Z-L, and were rated at 160ps ( ie - more peak power than the HLS30-U ), as did the other non-USA market HLS30 models and HS30 models - which like the HLS30-U had the L24 engine. They were certainly not fitted with the overdrive 5 speed to cover any lack of performance, were they?

[Bambikiller240]

I'd say that the main reasons the USA / North American market 'HLS30-U' model was equipped with a 4-speed instead of a 5-speed were first of all COST savings, and secondly the perceived lack of sophistication of the potential market ( whether that was correct or not ).

(editted only for brevity here)

I agree with the entire post (though I cannot speak to the last paragraph due to lack of experience).

Given the sales and success of the 240Z N. American model as delivered, Nissan IMO did get it "right". I do wonder if they could have gotten it "righter" (more right) with a "sporty" upgrade option as you describe (similar to C & D's Omega 240) which I assume had a 5 speed and some other improved features? We'll never know , I guess.

[Alfadog]

I don't think it was because there was a total lack of demand in America for the 5 speed. It's obvious that there was some demand, but from what I've learnt about Nissan (and this is pure speculation here) it could have been simply that the extra cost outweighed the benefits. Remember, there were hundreds of these things being shipped to the US. Manufacturing processes were very good at Nissan, but adding the optional 5-speed for a big, far away market adds another level of complexity to it. That's why dealers customised a lot of the cars. It's much easier to do that than assemble custom drivetrains in the factory... and imagine the wait!

Giving the option of a 5 speed would have made more customers happy I'm sure, but I think it could have cost more than it was worth......

My thoughts anyway.

(like Alan said, one thing is for sure - it wasn't for the lack of power of domestic models! America is the odd one out here, not Japan!)