gotta sell my 69 fairlady

[hls30.com]

"I just figured the rear vertical defogger glass was worth that much."($500)

Somebody got a deal!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7956848475&ssPageName=ADME:B:EF:US:1

Will

[Carl Beck]

NovaSS wrote:

> ...snipped.

>.. Carl says its worth $500.00 ...

Hi NovaSS:

I know you just may be razzing me.. but actually I intentionally did NOT say "it was worth $500.00".

More correctly I said..." in my opinion it would sell for between $500.00 and $1500.00 USD".

You ask for our thoughts, and I gave you my honest opinion. I did not assign a "worth" to the car, rather what I believe would be the range within the market at which it would actually sell.

I felt it was better to arm you with what I felt was the truth.. than to let you keep it until you actually needed the money, only then to find out you couldn't sell it for as much as you had hoped or others hand thought.

As far as I know, right now anyone can buy HLS30 00040 for $5,500.00 or $6,500.00 . It is a very solid, all original California Z (meaning never wrecked nor highly modified and not badly rusted) running car.. a very good candidate for full restoration. I can not see anyone paying the mid point of Chris valuation..$5,250.00 for your Z, when for the same money they could buy an easily restorable, solid bodied Z. Supply/demand and market competition for few buyer dollars...

Chris said he paid $2350.00 for #27... also with extensive rust damage. But Chris also received hard to find new OEM parts with the car - IMO well worth $1,000.00 to $1,500.00 on ebay. Parts which he could apply directly to his #26. Also the brag factor of having sequential serial numbers is well worth a few hundred bucks to any of us.. deduct the value of the new parts and what did he really pay for the car?

It is also possible that someone out there desperately needs some parts off that car.. and at the same time winds up bidding against another equally desperate and determined bidder on ebay.. it's possible.. but I believe not really probable. Put it on ebay with a reserve of $5,100.00 and if it doesn't bring that.. sell it to Chris.

Like everyone else.. just my perspective of the current market...

FWIW,

Carl

[dspillman]

NovaSS wrote:

> ...snipped.

>.. Carl says its worth $500.00 ...

As far as I know, right now anyone can buy HLS30 00040 for $5,500.00 or $6,500.00 . It is a very solid, all original California Z (meaning never wrecked nor highly modified and not badly rusted) running car.. a very good candidate for full restoration. Like everyone else.. just my perspective of the current market...

FWIW,

Carl

Carl,

Could you please direct me to this car? Direct info to: Volgolf@aol.com

David Spillman

[HS30-H]

I have stated that there were no Right Hand Drive DATSUN 240-Z's produced in 1969.

That was based on many facts, not the least of which is the fact that the lowest VIN sold to the public, that we have found and verified, for the RHD 240Z's is HS30 00004 in Australia.

#HLS30 00016 was the lowest VIN 240Z sold to the Pubic. It is still driven by it's second owner today in the Tampa Bay area of Florida, USA.

Er, so its 'HS30-00004' that is the 'lowest VIN' 240Z 'sold to the public' that you have found and verified. Correct?

See what I mean? Hoist by your own petard, Sir.

So you think your conclusion that 'HS30-00004'

was manufactured in January 1970 proves that 'HS30-00001', 'HS30-00002' & 'HS30-00003' were also not made in 1969 ( presuming that they ever actually existed )? You are willing to be very definite in your views on this, but it seems to me that you have less than enough evidence to prove it.

I believe that you might be confusing the Datsun 240-Z with the Nissan Fairlady Z.

I never stated, nor implied that Nissan Fairlady Zs were not produced in 1969. Indeed if you review Z Home you will see articles there on the Z 432's stating they were shown at the first auto show in 1969.

I believe that you might be under the impression that the '240Z' ( er, which model of 240Z? ) is not a member of the "S30 Model Series" of Z cars. In which case you had better inform Nissan, as they seem to disagree with you.

So its OK for S30-S and S30 models of Fairlady Z to be lumped in with the PS30 and PS30-SB Fairlady Z ( despite their different prefixes and model variant names ) but not correct to include the '240Z' ( again, which one? ) in that group? Ah, must be the Beck Filing System at work.

I remind you that the blue HLS30-U model '240Z' displayed at the 1969 Tokyo Auto Show was wearing all its 'Datsun 240Z' emblems, but was wearing a sign in place of its number plates that read "Fairlady Z - Export Model". As I have noted so many times before, you seem to be in total denial that the '240Z' ( for all territories ) was part of a range or family of cars that was covered by the appelation 'Model S30 Series'. Accepting that plain truth will not diminish the '240Z' in any way. Why can't you see it?

I attach a scan from a Nissan factory parts manual for you. If you tell me that it is incorrect in the data it portrays, then it also calls into doubt the data published in the corresponding North American market parts manuals, does it not?

[Victor Laury]

Now that NovaSSS might keep the car, I can say this safely.. Don't sell too low. The sum of it parts are worth far more. The fender mirrors alone are one hot item. I could not make out the detail of the dash, but if it was fitted with the Rallye clock (sweep second hand, adustable bezel), then the clock and it's associated control box is very valuable (to me!). There may be other option items that were only availible on JDM cars, as well as many standard items (jdm standard items) being coveted by restorers and general fanatics (again me). I'd fork over a few bengimins for the early 5 speed (as a roadster owner, I collect them). Those wheels look very close to a rare Brittish circa 1967 wheel set (look for a "100+" marking), that are again quite valuable. If you decide to restore it... BLESS YOU! If you sell, know what your selling before you start.

[Carl Beck]

Ben wrote:

>...snipped...

>I have talked with Matsuo-san personally and he told me that the Z was meant

>to be a worldly car; one that would be acceptable in all countries. Thus, each

>export market had a slightly different variation. Where do you get that it was

>only intended for the US? It is very arrogant to say that.

Hi Ben:

I do not believe that I have ever said it was "ONLY" intended for the US. I said it was specifically designed for the US. As such, variations of that core design were pretty easily accommodated for sales almost anywhere in the world.

I am sure that during the design process, considerations were made to offer the car in both Right and Left Hand Drive configurations. I'm also sure that during the design process and the production engineering process several variations were anticipated.

No doubt in my mind that Nissan wanted to sell a few into their home market. There is also no doubt in my mind that Nissan Management felt there was only a very limited market in Japan for any Sports Cars. From the early 50's Nissan Management felt that sports cars were intended for their export markets. (this is written about almost everywhere you search for Datsun/Nissan Corporate history)

I do get the impression that the Z Car was "specifically" designed for the US Market, based mainly on the thoughtful writings, and public speeches of the two men most directly involved. Mr. K and Mr. Matsuo.

I too have personally meet both of them and talked to them. Mr. Matuso only briefly at Mr. K's induction into the American Automobile Hall Of Fame. (arrogant as we Americans are..we put the U.S. head of a Japanese Automobile Company in our Hall Of Fame!! While his kind hearted Management, at Nissan Corporate Japan, tried to shuffle him off into obscurity by forced retirement).

Combine Mr K and Mr Matsuo's words (quoted below FYI ) with the fact that aprox. 148,000 Datsun 240-Zs were sent to the USA (aprox. 160,000 to North America including Canada's 11,198 units ) while aprox. 5300 were sent to all other Countries in the world combined. (Australia 2358, GB 1929, Germany 112, Holland 232 and France 672). #Figures from Nissan Motors Ltd. Japan, as published in their 280ZX Book.

160,000 to 5300. Doesn't look like a "World Car" to me. As a matter of fact, it was designing and building "world cars" that contributed to Nissan Motors Ltd. Japan going all but broke and being taken over by Renault. That is one of the reasons I refuse to refer to the Z Car as a "world car". It most certainly was not.

The single most significant factor that made the Datsun 240-Z one of the ten most important cars in US Automotive History.. is the fact that Nissan changed their design paradigm way back in 1967, when instead of designing cars for their domestic market and exporting a few for extra sales, they focused on designing cars for the specific customers in the specific export market they wanted to sell into. The key here is the word "Customers" what the Customers in that market expected in an automobile and what the Customers wanted.

In 1970 that was primarily the US market and American Customer expectations. Nissan Motors USA did extensive market research and Mr. K insisted that Nissan Japan build cars specifically for his American Customers. (unlike all other foreign sports car manufacturers at the time).

IMHO to infer other wise, to argue that the DATSUN 240-Z wasn't aimed specifically and squarely at American consumers, wasn't designed specifically for the American market -- is to loose site of the single most important part of the Z Car Story.

Successful sales alone, do not add up to becoming one of the ten most important cars in US Automotive History. Mr, K wasn't inducted into the Automobile Hall of Fame simply because he became the head of a Japanese Auto Manufacturers Subsidiary here in the US and sold lots of cars.

The story of the Z Car is about the paradigm shift in how foreign automobile manufactures designed and marketed cars in the US... about how that paradigm shift impacted the entire US Automotive Market... and then the worlds automotive market.

FYI

The following as Reprinted in John B. Rae's "NISSAN/DATSUN A history of Nissan Motor Corporation USA 1960 to 1980 (authorized by Nissan Motors Ltd. Japan).

At the introduction of the Datsun 240-Z in Oct. of 1969, Yutaka Katayama said to the employees of Nissan Motors USA the following:

- - Quote Mr. Katayama - ---

With the introduction of the Datsun 240-Z, Nissan will have enjoyed the accomplishment of covering the American market from the Pickup to the Personal Sports Car.

We are proud to have been able to cover all purposes of motor car use, and for our Datsun dealer network, the new 240-Z affords an opportunity to create an exciting new image.

240-Z represents the imaginative spirit of Nissan, and was designed to please a demanding taste that is strictly American. It meets all the requirements of sports-minded drivers, fulfilling their desire for superb styling, power and safety; and provides them with the most thrilling, and enjoyable ride available in any car."

Our new product reflects the rapid advancement of our company, and its development will be unique in automobile history. We have studied the memorable artistry of European coachmakers and engine builders and combined our knowledge with Japanese craftsmanship. The result is an exotic, high performance car exclusively for America.

It will be the beginning of a new romance for true car lovers who believe that motoring is more than just a commute.

We adopt this new 240-Z as an aggressive innovation in automobile building and take pride in having been totally responsible for its concept.

Nissan offers this spirited car with affection - its heart is Japan and the soul is American.

= = = = = = .....end quote...... = = = = = =

I would say that is pretty straight forward and pretty definitive language from the Father of the Z Car, who fully understood what had been accomplished. No sales or advertising hype.. he was talking to the Nissan employees honestly from his heart.

If both men say it was designed specifically for American and Nissan Motors shipped 90% of them here, I'll take their written words and actions for it. Quite frankly I see no rational basis to dispute it.

See Mr. Matsuo's words in the next Post..

Carl

[Carl Beck]

Hi Ben:

FYI - just in case you don't have the book..

= = == Quoted From the book Mr. Matsuo and Mr. Katayama wrote; "FAIRLADY STORY DATSUN SP/SR & Z", and as translated by Brian Long = == =

In this section Mr. Matsuo is telling how his original concepts for a world class sports car (a convertible with a 2.0L four cylinder engine), were over time modified by the realization that Nissan Management would do nothing to put his design concepts into production, hence a Change In Direction. Mr Matsuo enlisted the support of Mr. K, who he felt was the only person in Nissan Management that would listen to him. ... In turn he walks us through the evolution of the concept, as driven by requirements from the US market and Mr. K.. With Mr. K's backing and assurances to Nissan Corporate Management.. the Z car moves from "concept" and "styling alternatives" to pre-production and final design...

= = =Quote - -

A Change In Course:

Regarding the Plan A series, in late-1966, we decided to approach the project in a different way. We heard of America's new safety regulations (MVSS), and realized it would be extremely difficult for an open car to comply, especially with the roll over requirements being cited. There were other factors, too, that made us abandon the softtop, such as poor rearward visibility, particularly in the rain, the cloth top flapping at high speeds and security.

Mr. Katayama has always said a closed coupe was perhaps the ideal compromise, so we started to look into the possibilities of a hatchback, which would enable us to combine aerodynamic styling with good luggage capacity.

{two paragraphs about pop-up headlights snipped..cjb}....

A Prototype Based On "Plan A"

From 1967, work begin in earnest producing full-sized clays based on the Plan A proposal. One of the key Z styling features evolved during this period, namely the "sugar scoop" headlights. The SAE regulations stated they should be 60cm from the ground, but plastic headlight covers were not allowed in America at the time. However we offered the later item as an option in Japan.

The final clay we produced was very close to the to the ultimate shape of the Z. Although the body was still a touch narrow, the roof-line a little too high, the bonnet much too low to accept the six cylinder L-24 engine, and there remained a lot of detailing to do around the windows and tail-end. I was basically happy with the result.

By coincidence, at the time of it's completion, Mr. Katayama was back in Japan to see the 510 before it was launched. During his visit he ask to see the next generation sports car, so we lined up the various clays (including the early ones depicting convertibles) and his eyes went straight to the last one we built. He said this was just what he needed in America.

With Mr. Katayama's support, the project finally started to progress and the engineering department became involved. Eventually, by early Autumn of 1967, we had produced a fiberglass prototype. It was allocated the "Z" designation (an appellation that would stay with the car throughout it production life). However, when the technical staff arrived to discuss the project, we found we had a number of problems.

Mr. Katayama had requested the 2.4 liter L24 powerplant, while the Japanese market had exorbitant taxes on vehicles over 2000cc. Nissan had just taken over the Prince concern, and we were told to use their two liter S20 twin cam unit. (this eventually became the famous Z432 model incidentally). This powerful engine would require a stronger transmission, and the automatic version of the L24 equipped model required a much wider transmission tunnel; this in turn led to a reduction of interior space, so the only solution left open to us was to increase the width of the body. At the same time, the bonnet height had to be altered to accommodate the engines, and the roof-line was adjusted to suit.

- - - - - - END Quote: - - - - - - -

I believe that from the above statements by Mr. Matsuo it is quite clear that the design from 1967 forward, was driven by US requirements, Mr. K's inputs and only brought to production with Mr. K's support.

No question that the flexibility to re-configure the design for additional sales in other markets was designed in from the beginning.. but selling all manor of different configurations in many markets wasn't the main goal. The main goal was to design a Sports/GT specifically to meet the expectations of American Customers.. Something that no other foreign manufacturers had done to that point.

FWIW,

Carl

[Carl Beck]

Alan wrote:

>....snipped...

>As I have noted so many times before, you seem to be in total denial that the

>'240Z' ( for all territories ) was part of a range or family of cars that was covered

>by the appelation 'Model S30 Series'. Accepting that plain truth will not diminish the >'240Z' in any way. Why can't you see it?

The problem we have is, that I can see it. You desire to have the Nissan Fairlady Z viewed as, perceived as, being the same as, existing on the same level of importance as - the DATSUN 240-Z.

I simply do not share that perspective. Actually I believe it to be totally false.

Your affection for Japan is admirable and I share it. Only in America would Mr. K have been able to realize his dreams.. and he has said so. Only America was so open to and supportive of Japan.. when they needed a friend the most. Honoring the accomplishments of Mr. Katayama and Mr. Matsuo certainly can't be construed as having an American bias, supporting their written perspectives can't be construed as being arrogant...

When the history of the Z Car is written, the story will be about the DATSUN 240-Z. Yes there will be a chapter maybe two about the JDM Nissan Fairlady Z, as well as a chapter or two about all the following years alterations and incarnations of all the Z's... Nonetheless the main story will be carried by the DATSUN 240-Z that changed the automotive landscape on an international basis.

The Fairlady Z didn't kill the British Sports Car industry.. the Datsun 240-Z may have. The Fairlady Z didn't change America's perception of Japanese Automobiles and their Quality... the DATSUN 240-Z did. The Fairlady Z didn't set all time sales records, the DATSUN 240-Z did. The Fairlady Z wasn't designed for the Japanese market, but the DATUSN 240-Z was designed for the American market.

If you think about it -the real story of the Nissan Fairlady Z is that it was the exact opposite, of what almost every other sports car imported into America was. The Nissan Fairlady Z was adapted for sale in the local market, where all the other non US sports cars at the time were adapted for sale in their export market.

If Nissan had brought another British or Italian style, Japanese sports car to America, it would have most likely sold in slightly better numbers than the 1600/2000 roadsters did, but it wouldn't have had much of an impact on the market. Designing a car specifically to meet American Customers expectations - had a huge impact on the market.

If the Nissan Fairlady Z's had never been produced, the story of the Z wouldn't be changed all that much.. If the DATSUN 240-Z had not been produced.. there would be no story to tell, there would be no Z.

No, the DATSUN 240-Z was not just a part of a family of cars, it was the singular Head Of Household. Yes there are interesting offspring surrounding it, but they are most certainly not siblings.

just my honest perspective ..

Carl

[Carl Beck]

Alan wrote:

>I attach a scan from a Nissan factory parts manual for you. If you tell me that

>it is incorrect in the data it portrays, then it also calls into doubt the data

>published in the corresponding North American market parts manuals,

>does it not?

Hi Alan:

Thanks for the image.

I would not say the data it presents is incorrect. I would say that like most of the data published by Nissan in the early days, I'd like to see some verification.

I'll put a lot of faith in it... and leap to the conclusion that not only was a chassis serial sequence assigned to the HS30 Datsun 240-Z's in Oct. of 1969, but that a car was actually built and stamped with that number in 1969.

I'll report where necessary that a Nissan publication would seem to indicate that at least 1 Right Hand Drive Datsun 240-Z was built in 1969... but that we have no way of telling if it was ever released for sale..

regards,

Carl

[Alfadog]

Firstly, whoa Ben! It's good to see you having your say. I know you usually approach these types of things in a more.. ahh.. diplomatic manner, but a strong opinion means you're passionate As I believe everyone in this thread certainly is...

As such, variations of that core design were pretty easily accommodated for sales almost anywhere in the world.

How come it was the American version that was the "core design", and everything else stemmed from that? Remember, America was the odd one out when it came to specifications, as mentioned earlier. Did Nissan design the car with soft suspension and a 4-speed and then make variations of this (which were all pretty similar) for other markets? I don't think so... There was the domestic model, and the export model. Of course there were changes made for each country's regulations (e.g. American cars had rear reflector repeaters fitted), but there wasn't a single "Original 240Z" from which everything else stemmed. This is what Alan is talking about I think (correct me if I'm wrong). There is absoltuely no doubt America was important (most important?), but not the "core design".

160,000 to 5300. Doesn't look like a "World Car" to me.

When Porsche was contracted to design the KdFWagen, do you think he was designing from the US specifically? Of course not... Granted the situation has its differences, but fact remains at the design stage of the S30Z no one expected it to sell so well in the US. That is why Matsuo told Ben it was a world car. You make it sound like everything (even the domestic market cars!) were an afterthought!

When the history of the Z Car is written, the story will be about the DATSUN 240-Z. Yes there will be a chapter maybe two about the JDM Nissan Fairlady Z, .......

Yeah, if it's to be published in America. I wonder (genuinely) what kind of information Japanese Z-car history books have....

The Fairlady Z wasn't designed for the Japanese market, but the DATUSN 240-Z was designed for the American market.

Err, the Fairlady Z wasn't designed for the Japanese market? Is that a typo, or are your beliefs really that twisted?

Anyway, I just thought I'd throw in my opinion too. The beauty of the Internet eh?

[26th-Z]

Zowwie! No intention on my part to get into an argument, however a few of the facts are getting a little distorted and I am begining to believes that whats I thinks are facts might very well be my own opinion.

With regard to what I paid for #27 and what I got...I was offered twice what I paid for the car the day after I bought it. Fact. I was flattered and the fellow who made me the offer is one of my closer Z friends. The parts that came with #27 were very nice indeed, but hardly worth $1,000. I have purchased similar parts for #26 - on eBay.

No "anyone" cannot purchase HLS30-00040 for $5,500. It was sold within days of the advertisement. Deals get snapped up fast. It was gone with hours of my hearing about it. Another low VIN car that sold for a similar price to #40 needed floors. I recently saw a low VIN parts car go for $1,000.

I have been watching early VIN car sales and Vintage Z car sales for quite some time. I have been competitively buying parts and restoring components from dashboards to engines for two years. I think I have a pretty good grip on the market. I stick to my guns on the values I have mentioned.

You have, in my opinion, a very restorable and potentially valuable car, NovaSS. I'm surprised it hasn't been snatched up like white on rice. It has long been my opinion that one cannot fully understand the phenomenon of the 240-Z without understanding what happened in Japan. Your example has several unique qualities which gives it a high value potential.

RESTORE THAT JAPANESE BEAUTY

What do you gus think of the dancer look fenders? Zebra stripes!

[EricB]

#40 was posted for sale on the bulletin board at MSA in Orange, CA approximately two years ago & I considered selling my '73 to get it. Pictures showed it to be orange/black and had been in storage for the better part of its life. If we are talking about the same car while it was nice it was not a runner as it had sat for so long...

If I remember correctly it was listed at $4500-5000

-e