gotta sell my 69 fairlady

[texasz]

"I just figured the rear vertical defogger glass was worth that much."($500)

Somebody got a deal!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7956848475&ssPageName=ADME:B:EF:US:1

Will

I bit my tounge on this statement but your are correct Will, the hatch glass is not worth that much used...new...maybe...but not used.

Chris said he paid $2350.00 for #27... also with extensive rust damage. But Chris also received hard to find new OEM parts with the car - IMO well worth $1,000.00 to $1,500.00 on ebay. Parts which he could apply directly to his #26. Also the brag factor of having sequential serial numbers is well worth a few hundred bucks to any of us.. deduct the value of the new parts and what did he really pay for the car?

Carl

Yes, this is true and I feel it went for more than it was worth...but then again this is why I was out bid on it and Chris has it. It was certainly worth more to him as he now has two sequential Z cars and I highly doubt that there is anyone else in the world who can say that (opinion here, not fact). So as one can see this would prompt him to bid higher than many others just as it would have me if I were in his position.

The bottom line here it supply and demand coupled with pure desire. I agree with the statements to put it on eBay and see what she'll fetch....however I would much rather you sell it to me instead. Do be aware that any Joe Schmoe can buy it off of eBay and may not have to same attachment to the Z cars as those of us in this, and other, forums do and as such someone on hybridz may end up with it and hack her to pieces like the ol' chicken coop car last year so please keep this in mind if you really want it to go to a vintage Z buff and not just anyone with the most cash.

[Zrush]

What do you gus think of the dancer look fenders? Zebra stripes!

Hey that fender looks familiar. Leave it like that and the guys will start throwing dollar bills at 27th. Excellent way to finance your restoration project. When does her "Ztriped (or even Ztripped) National Tour" start

Vicky

[Carl Beck]

#40 was posted for sale on the bulletin board at MSA in Orange, CA approximately two years ago & I considered selling my '73 to get it. Pictures showed it to be orange/black and had been in storage for the better part of its life. If we are talking about the same car while it was nice it was not a runner as it had sat for so long...

If I remember correctly it was listed at $4500-5000

-e

Hi Eric:

Yes, we are most likely talking about the same car. It was gold as I recall.. Yes, it had sat for many years in a ladies garage.

The guy that found it, had it at MSA three or four years ago, but then he thought it was worth $11K. No takers... I believe he could have sold it for around $6,500.00 at MSA if he hadn't chased the buyers off with the silly high price.

A year or so later, he needed money... and had put more money into the car. At that point, forced to sell, he sold it for something less than $5,500.00. I don't know what Ben paid for it... but if Ben was willing to sell it for $5,500.00 I seriously doubt he paid more than $4,500.00. He would have had another grand in it for shipping.

A few days ago, a friend of mine went to look at the car, and called me. He said he could buy it for $5,500.00 - I told him to buy it. It was pretty close, so he'd save a grand on shipping alone. (compaired to having one shipped from the SouthWest)

FWIW,

Carl

[Carl Beck]

When Porsche was contracted to design the KdFWagen, do you think he was designing from the US specifically? Of course not... Granted the situation has its differences, but fact remains at the design stage of the S30Z no one expected it to sell so well in the US. That is why Matsuo told Ben it was a world car. You make it sound like everything (even the domestic market cars!) were an afterthought!

Hi Alpha Dog:

"...but fact remains at the design stage of the S30Z no one expected it to sell so well in the US..".

Can you tell me where you found these facts? Everything I've found in my research of the subject would seem to indicate the exact opposite to be true.

I can only depend on the words that Mr. Matsuo wrote. What he is understood to have told someone in a casual conversation, I have no way of telling the context of the exchange.

I do believe that as Mr. Matsuo and Mr. K were writing the story the way they lived it, they were attempting to tell the truth. Not my opinion, just the truth as they documented it in their book, written and published in Japan, in the Japanese language, by two Japanese men. (Brian Long did the English translation and I trust did it well).

You say no one expected it to sell well. I have heard that before, but I can not find anything factual to support it. Following all the magazine articles and books written over the years, I believe that the fact that Nissan Management was reportedly cautious, possibly even skeptical of Katayama's sales forecasts, has somehow gotten misunderstood, twisted through reworded repetition - to mean "no one expected the Z to sell well". That just simply is not the case, nor is it supported by actual events.

Nissan's top management was always cautious, but Mr. Katayama assured them that if it was produced to his US Customers requirements and expectations, he would sell it in the numbers forecast.

Note: In the quoted reference that follows FYI .... when Mr. Matsuo refers to "his superiors".. he is talking about his supervisor and management chain in the Design Dept.. He went around them, many levels of management higher to enlist the support of Mr. K. Successful as he was as a designer, going around your management chain in Japanese corporations was something one just did not do.. Not too long after the Project Z, Mr. Matsuo left Nissan. Of course this is exactly what Mr. K did.. he went around his management chain in 1957... to promote International Rallying in 1958... and his management chain resented it, and him, until he was finally forced to retire.

Mr. Matsuo wrote, in his same book quoted earlier:

: .... "The Era In Which The Z Project Started"

.........snipped...

"...Furthermore, instead of producing 300 units per month, this had to be a high-volume seller, capable of becoming the core of Nissan's export business - I suggested a level of nearer 3,000 vehicles per month to make it profitable.

Ultimately, we achieved far greater sales figures than this, but at the time, my superiors thought it was a foolish plan; nobody except Mr. Katayama would listen to me. I felt that the only way to make any progress with the project was to make a clay model to show to Katayama-san, gain his support, and ask him, as President of Nissan USA, to push for the models development."

= = = =end quote = = =

As you can see, according to Mr. Matsuo at least he and Mr. K thought the car would sell very well. Given that Nissan's top management approved the mass production of the car, they must have been convinced it would sell in the numbers forecast. (which were huge numbers by comparison to previous sales)

Looking at the start up production schedules that Kats provided, production of the Z was set up to produced at least a couple thousand per month, once full capacity was reached on the lines. By comparison, Nissan had been building 8,868 1600//2000 roadsters in 1969 and selling 8,769 into their export market (again largely in the US). According to tables in the same book, Nissan sold 21,837 Z's in 1970 and 44,988 in 1971.

From 1958 to 1970 Nissan built and sold a total of 49,821 Sports Cars.. In 1970 and 71 alone they reported 67, 997 Z's..

At least according to the two men most involved.. it was expected to set new sales records for Nissan and the production plans for at least 1970 were about three times greater than the previous year.

I think the statement that; "it sold far better than anyone dreamed", would be closer to the truth. But you can see how that could easily be twisted through reported repetition to .... "no one expected it to sell as well as it did". It was forecast to sell at 3000 units per month, and cautiously it put into production at 2000 units per month... but it sold over the four years of its production at over 4000 units per month average.

Had Nissan's top management not been quite so conservative they could have easily doubled their first and second year sales. By 1972, according to the same book - they had ramped up production close to 66,000 per year. (65,956 of which 60,025 were exported 91%) and increased the retail price of the car by 20%!

FWIW,

regards,

Carl

[Carl Beck]

Yeah, if it's to be published in America. I wonder (genuinely) what kind of information Japanese Z-car history books have....

The book I'm using as a reference here, was written in Japan, published in Japan, written in the Japanese language.

I would encourage anyone with an interest in doing their own research to get a copy. Wonderful pictures by Mr. Matsuo of the evolution of the design. The translation by Brian Long is great reading, but contains no Pictures!! So you really need both the Book and the translation if you don't read Japanese.

FARILADY Z STORY .. DATSUN SP/SR & Z 1960 to 1989

by Yutaka Katayama and Yoshihiko Matsuo

Published Miki Press

ISBN: 4-89522-244-6

There are several other good books about the Z published in Japan, in Japanese. There is a good reference to them at:

http://dsoanews.tripod.com/History.htm

Some rare books published in Japanese are a bit spendy... but well worth getting if you can find them. Filled with great pictures

FWIW,

regards,

Carl

[Carl Beck]

Some time much earlier someone in this thread as about the percentages of A/T equipped 240-Z's. Sorry I can't remember who ask or commented on it.

Nonetheless I did remember the question.. and it took me a while to find any reference point... but looking through the Z Library here at home...

In John B Rae's History of Nissan/Datsun... he published retail sales figures for 1971. Taken from Nissans records...

The chart shows:

24,441 240-Z's with standard shift.

2,291 240-Z's with A/T

Total 26,732

These figures are units sold by Nissan USA to their Authorized Dealers in fiscal year 1971 (I don't think that was the same a Calender year). Nonetheless at least it's one data point... showing about 9% of the total were A/T's..

FWIW,

Carl

[Zedrally]

All that I can add is if the 240Z [HLS30] as known in the US market was the core model, then how on earth could the designers get it so wrong by locating the handbrake on the "wrong" side!

Surely, such an important device would have been designed & mounted or placed in a position of immediate acceptance to its greatest potential market, unless such vast sales where never anticipated.

The reality of this thread [now hijacked] is that those who don't consider the S30 as the core model will never accept the fact, similarly, many of us can never accept the argument that the HLS30 is the core model.

Long live all S30's and it's siblings.....

MOM

[Bambikiller240]

Some time much earlier someone in this thread as about the percentages of A/T equipped 240-Z's. Sorry I can't remember who ask or commented on it.

Nonetheless I did remember the question.. and it took me a while to find any reference point... but looking through the Z Library here at home...

In John B Rae's History of Nissan/Datsun... he published retail sales figures for 1971. Taken from Nissans records...

The chart shows:

24,441 240-Z's with standard shift.

2,291 240-Z's with A/T

Total 26,732

These figures are units sold by Nissan USA to their Authorized Dealers in fiscal year 1971 (I don't think that was the same a Calender year). Nonetheless at least it's one data point... showing about 9% of the total were A/T's..

FWIW,

Carl

Thanks for the info, Carl. That's about what I expected. A/T Z's weren't very prevelent in the area I live. I usually saw them in the ownership of older people in my area. (i.e. older than Baby Boomers)

(I was the one who inquired)

[Bambikiller240]

Surely, such an important device would have been designed & mounted or placed in a position of immediate acceptance to its greatest potential market, unless such vast sales where never anticipated.

What can possibly make you think that it ISN'T (wasn't) accepted in that location (in the market of it's greatest sales)? Just because you don't think it belongs there, doesn't mean that the US market agrees with that belief.

Many of us laugh when you and others whine about it's placement. Are your arms so short that it would be a burden to reach it 6" further away? :stupid:

[Mr Camouflage]

What was this thread suposed to be about again?

[Carl Beck]

All that I can add is if the 240Z [HLS30] as known in the US market was the core model, then how on earth could the designers get it so wrong by locating the handbrake on the "wrong" side!

Surely, such an important device would have been designed & mounted or placed in a position of immediate acceptance to its greatest potential market, unless such vast sales where never anticipated.

MOM

Hi Mike

"Core"... Of course the "S30" body shell is the "Core". The argument is about for whom and for what purpose, the car was designed and built.

I believe that Mr. Matsuo and Mr. Katayama are the best authority to define the answer to those questions, and they have. They both say that the Z car was specifically designed for the US market. Mr. Matsuo explains in the book he co-authored how his initial concepts for a "world class" sports car evolved into the Sports/GT that Mr. K wanted specifically for his US customers.

Mr Matsuo and Mr. K tell the story of how Mr. Matsuo was getting no-where with his designs as far as the approval of his supervisors... and how once he enlisted Mr. K's support, things started to move forward. Mr. Matsuo also outlines the evolution of the design from his initial roadster size, 4 cylinder, convertible... into the larger Sports/GT that Mr. K wanted.. Mr. Matsuo tells us that Mr. K insisted on the L24 for the US market, and how that drove even farther the size and shape of the car. Mr. Matsuo also tells us that it was Nissan Management that told him to use the S20 for the home market (as they had recently merged with Prince.). Mr Matsuo had designed his car to use the 2.0L four from the 2000 roadster...

"Core" of course the S30 body shell is the core... and it is the size that it is, because it had to hold the L24 for the US market, and it had to hold US size customers. Bob Sharp tell a very interesting story about that in a previous issue of Sports Car Graphic. If you dont know Mr. Sharp, or haven't seen him... he is over 6'2"... He evaluated the original Silvia Cpe for Nissan... and his feedback went directly to Japan (his and many other US Dealers)...that's another interesting story.

The bottom line is, as far as I can see, documentation from the main people involved all say that the Z car was designed specifically for the US market. Nissan Management in japan also supports that idea, as every interview with Nissan Management that I can find states that they saw their sports cars as export cars... not domestic market cars.

I'll be gone... until the weekend.. so save your breath ;-)

FWIW,

regards,

Carl

[sblake01]

It almost as if, from some of the responses, the you guys are looking for bragging rights as to which country the car was designed for. Carl's responses are not about that. They're about fact. The videos that we've all seen, even have Mr. K. himself indicating that the U.S. market was the main focus. I could care less, I'm just glad they built them, period. Personally, I don't see the need for all of this considering the guy was simply trying to establish the value of his car. If I were NovaSS, I would just sit back and watch you guys fight it out, it's interesting on many levels! But is doesn't really answer his question. If my car could cause all of this, I would definately keep it! Rock on Carl(s), Alfa, Mike, Alan, et al.