gotta sell my 69 fairlady

[26th-Z]

Congratulations Stephan! You just got bullshitted! Took it hook line and sinker!

[EScanlon]

...The argument......

With all due respect to everyone that has posted to this, I'd suggest we call it a DISCUSSION. Granted, it's heated and pointed, but let's try to keep it as a discussion and not an argument. An argument implies that there will be a "winner", and I can't fathom any one viewpoint here being assailed as the one that's more correct than the other.

Alan and Carl, I respect the knowledge and fervor that you both demonstrate in your posts. I've not had the opportunity to meet either one of you, but hopefully we can share a libation or two.

When I first searched the internet to research my (finally) purchase of my Z, your viewpoints were very informative and pleasant reading. Same goes to all the others who've contributed with information, questions and even clarifications, they've increased the value of this type of discussion.

However, I feel that this may be an issue that is very seriously tainted not only by the lack of total information available from Nissan, but also the haphazard manner in which they released it, further exacerbated by piecemeal agglomeration by well-meaning individuals. Any compilation of data will always have the compiler's editorial bias built into it.

This is why this sharing of information, regardless of your position on the issue, is so important. This is what allows us to sift through the data and hopefully agree on some and agree to disagree on others.

Where some people can point out numerous instances where Nissan said this or that, others can point to other instances where contradictions APPEAR to exist. They may simply be two different views of the same diamond from two different facets.

In a way, this is why politics gets so heated. (and no, I'm not alluding to anything). What is plainly evident to some, seems to be a veiled and hidden agenda to others.

One point that we must take into consideration, any statement that Nissan released in the U.S., I'll guarantee had been reviewed by Marketing Analysts, Advertising and Management to ensure that the public "persona" it portrayed to the U.S. customer highlighted AND emphasized how much was being done for the U.S. with the U.S. in mind. This is a simple marketing tactic. I use it at trade shows in other countries, and so do the 2-3 dozen Int. Sales Mgrs. I know. So, very bluntly, any pamphlet, brochure, catalog or hype expressed in the U.S. by Nissan will have that filter applied to it by Nissan.

While that may seem to nullify any argument regarding whether the Z was targeted at the U.S., it doesn't. Under the note I'm taking above, I'm presuming that Nissan would have similarly tainted their pamphlets, brochures, catalogs and hype to ANY other country in the same manner.

But then the "world" view needs to be considered.

I seriously doubt that anyone can provide a copy of a sales brochure, press release, catalog, etc. that was provided by Datsun with regards to the Z that went UNCHANGED from it's initial printing in Japan, that was then distributed WORLDWIDE.

If you remember that for the most part, as far as the Earth is conscerned, only JAPAN speaks / writes in JAPANESE. That's not to say that there aren't a lot of Japanese people living in...., and that..... My basic point is that OUTSIDE of Japan, Datsun would have had the brochure not only translated into the local language, but also modified and adjusted to fit THAT countries morés and laws. That is just too basic to need mentioning in a sales environment, but may or may not be something that the members of this group would be aware of. No insult intended, but it's a fact.

Every person that I've spoken to about translating ANY of the Oriental Languages from the WRITTEN Oriental to YOUR SPOKEN language has added, in one manner or another, that the translation is THEIR take on it. Even Alan has done so.

That is because the WRITTEN Oriental Language involves a completely and totally DIFFERENT symbology than "Western" languages, and yes I'm including Cyrillic, French, Spanish, Greek, English, etc, but NOT the Arabic languages, they have their own symbology.

When you encounter the semantic and ideological incongruities when translating between languages YOU speak, you can understand this fully. However, those of you who don't speak another language, you need a different way of perceiving that difficulty.

For those of you in the East Coast a BUBBLER is something very common in public parks and areas. The concept of a DRINKING FOUNTAIN seems not only stupid, but down-right dangerous. Who would want to drink water that is just being recirculated over and over again, in the open air to catch whatever crap falls into it. Yet to a person on the West Coast, this is perfectly natural and your bubbler is something you stick in an aquarium to aereate the water.

I've been told that in Australia, the expression "Keep Your Pecker Up!" is equivalent to the Americans "Keep Your CHIN Up!".

Where the Aussie term could safely be used amongst two pals, in a bar crowded with gorgeous women (that's a given), in a room full of children, it may cause you problems. And if you think about it, the American term in those same situations may have the situation's consequences reversed.

Even books written for those individuals in a group that spans multiple countries, will still exhibit a taint of self-aggrandisement, self-importance, and self-assurance.

NO ONE ADVERTISES THEIR FAILURES.

Most people and businesses would never allow a "sanctioned" publication that threatened to shatter / damage / impugn their public image. That it happens is the argument between celebrities and the press. if the celebrity has a hand in it, you can bet that the negative is eliminated.

While you may laugh at the idea of buying Michael Jackson's Auto-Biography, I would hazard a guess that he's not going to describe anything even remotely conceivable as what he is perceived as doing and being charged with. Pick up a trash journal...... or whatever reputable [/iB] magazine / newspaper / group you choose and then try to decide which one to believe.

THAT IS WHAT WE SHOULD BE DISCUSSING.

There is far too much intelligence on this post, to have it ruined because we can't, as intelligent people, agree that we WILL HAVE DIFFERENT VIEWS of the same diamond we are all interested in. Namely the Z, the 240Z, the Fairlady Z, the S30, and any that I missed.

There are definite similarities. Let's key on those and point out the differences that we've been able to observe.

Now, that having been said, WHERE the car was destined for INITIALLY, will have the biggest impact on it's design, but that can change midstream, and your emphasis and focus changes as things progress. It may be that in 1956 when Mr. K had the first "brainstorms" regarding what would become his biographical keynote, that his intent was different and initially proposed differently than what eventually came to pass.

THAT IS HIS "GENIUS". That's the force that brought it forth. His ability to recognize needed additions, modifications, deletions etc. is something we can only guess at. The end result is we're discussing this between 16 time zones or more. I think the time zones NOT involved are in the oceans.

2¢

Enrique

[HS30-H]

Enrique,

Nice post. Some very valid points there.

I could particularly relate to your thoughts on the differences between translations, and the fact that sales pitches can be mistaken for truth...

One point that we must take into consideration, any statement that Nissan released in the U.S., I'll guarantee had been reviewed by Marketing Analysts, Advertising and Management to ensure that the public "persona" it portrayed to the U.S. customer highlighted AND emphasized how much was being done for the U.S. with the U.S. in mind. This is a simple marketing tactic. I use it at trade shows in other countries, and so do the 2-3 dozen Int. Sales Mgrs. I know. So, very bluntly, any pamphlet, brochure, catalog or hype expressed in the U.S. by Nissan will have that filter applied to it by Nissan.

I'd just like to alight very briefly on the subject of Mr Yutaka Katayama. He has a ( rightly deserved ) reputation as a seminal figure in automotive history, and - like just about everybody else - I admire him very much. Revere his achievements, in fact. But criticising him, or suggesting that not everything he did was good for Nissan, would be considered akin to shooting Bambi or picking a fight with Mother Theresa of Calcutta. And yet there would be a very strong case to argue that he made some mistakes, and perhaps went rather a long way to creating some of the problems that reared their heads after he was shown the door. No doubt I will be castigated for daring to suggest this.

Katayama and Matsuo's names have been mentioned many times on this thread, and one might get the impression that all is sweetness and light between them. It wasn't always so, and I can tell you - from personal experience - that their renewed friendship has a very lot more going on behind it than the current smiles and backslapping suggest. All this "Mother and Father of the Z" thing does not tell the whole story.....

My basic point is that OUTSIDE of Japan, Datsun would have had the brochure not only translated into the local language, but also modified and adjusted to fit THAT countries morés and laws. That is just too basic to need mentioning in a sales environment, but may or may not be something that the members of this group would be aware of. No insult intended, but it's a fact.

Every person that I've spoken to about translating ANY of the Oriental Languages from the WRITTEN Oriental to YOUR SPOKEN language has added, in one manner or another, that the translation is THEIR take on it. Even Alan has done so.

Yes I have, as I'm only too aware that 'translation' from Japanese into English and vice versa is not as straightforward as most people would imagine. Its not only WRITTEN Japanese that is the problem. So much of Japanese culture is what is not said, and what is implied. Any translator would have to be a virtuoso jazz musician to do a half-way decent job I feel.

Which brings me to tie-up the two themes of my post; 'Lost In Translation' and the subtle differences between Katayama and Matsuo's viewpoints:

Carl Beck posted quotes ( at length ) from a Japanese-published book called "Fairlady Z Story" - published by MIKI PRESS in 1999. Katayama and Matsuo are credited as authors of the book, although the bulk of it was written by Hideaki Kataoka, Brian Long, and the "Miki Press Editorial Team". The chapters 'written' by Katayama and Matsuo ( one each ) were actually ghost-written from interviews conducted with them. Most of the picture captions are written in both Japanese and English, and a special limited-dition version was printed that contained an English translation of selected sections of the book on a folded paper insert - which was performed by Brian Long and his wife Miho. It is mostly from this that Carl Beck's quotes come

Now, I should say that Brian is a friend of mine - so I'm not slighting his translation. But I would like to illustrate the difficulty of translation, as well as differing viewpoints of Katayama and Matsuo, by pointing out the differences in their chapter titles.

Katayama's chapter reads ( phonetically ) "Datsun 240Z koshte tanjo shita" - which I would I would translate just as the book's subtitle has it: Birth of Datsun 240Z". Katayama wrote ( said ) "Datsun 240Z".

Contrast this with Matsuo's chapter, which reads ( again phonetically ) "Shodai Z design kaihatsu shuki" - which I would translate as: "Original Z design development essay", and yet the English subtitle in the book translates this as: "How I developed Datsun 240Z styling" - which is quite clearly not what he said or wrote. The Japanese title reads "Original Z" - not "Datsun 240Z"....

Here's where I'll have the "nitpicking" ( or "whining" ) foul card shown to me, I suppose. It may not matter to most people, but to me it is a subtle illustration of the way that Matsuo thinks ( more the Japanese way ) and the way that Katayama thinks ( naturally more the American way ) and I want to point it out. Not least because I don't want anybody to think that the book that Carl Beck is quoting from is the First Testament on the Z, or that it portrays everything the way that he sees it.

I doubt that many people are interested in this thread any more, but at least it had some decent info for NovaSS in it when it started.

Alan T.

[HS30-H]

All that I can add is if the 240Z [HLS30] as known in the US market was the core model, then how on earth could the designers get it so wrong by locating the handbrake on the "wrong" side!

MOM

Mike,

The handbrake issue is only one of the design concessions on the car, but Mr Beck likes to explain them away like he did on the "Interior Ergonomics" thread ( like the petrol filler flap being on the RIGHT of the car because that's the side that the pumps are in USA 'gasoline stands' ). Domino Theory goes nowhere when the Beck Patent Blinkers are fitted.

But didn't you see the one MASSIVE seachange in this thread? A huge seismic event. Buried amongst the quotes, wisecracks, postulations and hectoring was the very rare site of Beck conceding a point. Well, nearly anyway.....

Didn't anybody else notice that he seemingly - I still can't believe it myself - is now willing to accept the possibility that at least "one" HS30 might have been manufactured before the end of 1969.

His arithmetic is a bit out ( I would count at least three if Nissan actually assigned numbers HS30-00001 and HS30-00002, which does seem likely ) but even one is better than his previous "none".

And all this because - it appears - he hadn't seen a right hand drive Export market 'R-Drive' Factory parts book before. I guess there must be something missing from 'The Z Library' chez Beck?

Think we'll see revisions at zhome.com now? Don't hold your breath....

[Zedrally]

very big snip

I doubt that many people are interested in this thread any more, but at least it had some decent info for NovaSS in it when it started.

Alan T.

Although the thread was hijacked from it's original theme, it's none-the-less interesting to us "zedophiles"!

One common agreement [big step forward] has been that the S30 is the core of the family. Therefore, it's safe to say that the HLS30 was developed from that core [s30] for the US market.

That in it's own right is a major step forward.

MOM

[The C110]

Fantastic thread, ive been following it the whole way through! Im glad there are a great deal of literate people on this forum [compared to others], as the nomenclature and structure of posts has been wonderful. As an excercise in English alone, its a scintilating achievement. :classic:

[HS30-H]

It almost as if, from some of the responses, the you guys are looking for bragging rights as to which country the car was designed for. Carl's responses are not about that. They're about fact.

Stephen,

Maybe that's your perspective, but others of us have our perspectives too.

I'm surprised that you think all of Carl's responses are "fact", as I see a lot of opinion and biased reporting mixed in there. Maybe that doesn't look the same to you as it does to me - so be it.

But I think you would have to admit that Carl Beck popping up on a thread in which NovaSS was asking about his car - a model of Z which is not represented on zhome.com whatsoever - is faintly ironic. Or perhaps you don't read anything into that, and its me that is the strange one.

Here's a selected quote from his posts on this thread:

Combine Mr K and Mr Matsuo's words (quoted below FYI ) with the fact that aprox. 148,000 Datsun 240-Zs were sent to the USA (aprox. 160,000 to North America including Canada's 11,198 units ) while aprox. 5300 were sent to all other Countries in the world combined. (Australia 2358, GB 1929, Germany 112, Holland 232 and France 672). #Figures from Nissan Motors Ltd. Japan, as published in their 280ZX Book.

Is this a good example of one of the "facts" that he posted? Where are the figures for the Japanese market 'HS30' models ( they are '240Zs' are they not? The figures in that 280ZX book are wrong, and Beck knows it, but he still uses them.

The Fairlady Z wasn't designed for the Japanese market, but the DATUSN 240-Z was designed for the American market.

No, the DATSUN 240-Z was not just a part of a family of cars, it was the singular Head Of Household. Yes there are interesting offspring surrounding it, but they are most certainly not siblings.

"Bragging rights", Stephen? If anyone is looking for bragging rights I'd say that Mr Beck is doing a pretty good job. But you think not, it seems.

[Zedrally]

another snip

Didn't anybody else notice that he seemingly - I still can't believe it myself - is now willing to accept the possibility that at least "one" HS30 might have been manufactured before the end of 1969.

His arithmetic is a bit out ( I would count at least three if Nissan actually assigned numbers HS30-00001 and HS30-00002, which does seem likely ) but even one is better than his previous "none".

Yes, it didn't go un-noticed.

Last year there were rurmurs regarding 003 being re-discovered in Western Australia, despite numerous e-mails, I haven't been able to un-cover anymore information about it.

Just one further point about 004.

This was recalled to me by the owners son over a few ales several years ago!

The owner at the time [Harry Corbitt] contacted Carl Beck [& Carl can verfiy this] about it's probable build date.

In the absence of absolute proof, it was agreed that it was most probable that 004 was built in 1970.

However, that was based on the available data of the time [when was that Carl?].

With new emerging data that has come forward in this thread, it could challenge that belief and may place the build date of 004 in the year 1969.

If only Kats had access to export data from that era!

MOM

[hls30.com]

This thread is very interesting-albeit as an intellectual soapopera-along the lines of The Spark Museum arguing a point with the Burndy Library over the intent in the invention of a voltiac pile!

Diamonds amongst the dross are rarely in such abundance.

Will

[HS30-H]

Diamonds amongst the dross are rarely in such abundance.

Which particular bits were diamonds for you then, Will?

[hls30.com]

The information (Diamond) that is purely about the car(s) is published in several sources. In the post, we have effectively gotten a digested version of those, and a bibliography of those sources(Diamonds) that I had not experienced. You and Carl have facetted them for the rest of us, but also given us access to the mine and the facetting tools, improving the availabilty of satisfaction for my thirst.

Will

[EScanlon]

SNIP

Katayama's chapter reads ( phonetically ) "Datsun 240Z koshte tanjo shita" - which I would I would translate just as the book's subtitle has it: Birth of Datsun 240Z". Katayama wrote ( said ) "Datsun 240Z".

Contrast this with Matsuo's chapter, which reads ( again phonetically ) "Shodai Z design kaihatsu shuki" - which I would translate as: "Original Z design development essay", and yet the English subtitle in the book translates this as: "How I developed Datsun 240Z styling" - which is quite clearly not what he said or wrote. The Japanese title reads "Original Z" - not "Datsun 240Z"....

Here's where I'll have the "nitpicking" ( or "whining" ) foul card shown to me, I suppose. It may not matter to most people, but to me it is a subtle illustration of the way that Matsuo thinks ( more the Japanese way ) and the way that Katayama thinks ( naturally more the American way ) and I want to point it out. Not least because I don't want anybody to think that the book that Carl Beck is quoting from is the First Testament on the Z, or that it portrays everything the way that he sees it.

SNIP

Re: the phrase you phonetically wrote out "Shodai Z design kaihatsu shuki" , I note the use of the word DESIGN in there, which I find to be too coincidental with the use of the term in the English to ignore it's use in the Japanese. That, to me, implies that the Japanese language has assimilated the word Design into it's language to represent a previously un-labeled concept. (All words are labels, whether as names or as descriptions or modifiers.)

That helps to highlight how a concept idea expressable in one language is such a new item that the receiving language does not have time to generate it's label according to it's rules and must therefore assimilate an "external" word in order to have it's new word. This is, as a very broad rule of thumb, the differentiating factor between a "live" language and a "dead" language that differs from the "living people use it" and "no one alive speaks it", which are commonly thought to be the definitions of live and dead languages.

Spanish, apparently Japanese, and other languages are "dead" in that the label making machinery inherent in their structure is not set up or operational.

(The word for television in Spanish is television, radio is radio, although originally it was referred to as Receptor de Difusora de Radio and later Radiodifusora, essentially Receptor of Radio Wave Diffusion / Radiodiffuser.)

Whereas English is definitely a "live" language, it generates new words, concepts and meanings quickly and prolifically. So much so that it isn't unusual to have 2 translators with different backgrounds come up with different translations (into English) from the same original language. (I won't even get into translating FROM English into other languages, that is a true nightmare, as the general TONE of the piece can affect WHICH part of the piece to emphasize, and what words get used.

This can REALLY make things difficult.

Now as far as the personal viewpoints of the individuals involved in the writings you cite, only if you can empathize with the author's position will you perceive some of this, let alone correctly. Your point being made about the general "attitude" of the writer, is something that unless you've experienced the culture / background of the individual (when referring to language translations) will you gleam an understanding of the way they think.

2¢

Enrique