gotta sell my 69 fairlady

[Victor Laury]

I wish they had shipped the U.S. Market cars with the 5 speed. If they had, I might still be able to get parts for my roadster 5's. That is, unless one of you guys is sitting on a stack of steel servo style syncros for the FS5C71A's

I'm all for the pinto's baby! There was a pinto that raced at PBIR (early 80's) that tore up track.

[EScanlon]

Wow, excellent post to come back to after a couple of days of working on Beandip's Z.

Due to the length and broad range of themes, I'd like to pitch in just blurps.

Regarding the numbers of cars based on reported serial numbers.

Were these ACTUAL production figures or were they based on the projection of serial numbers to be assigned to that model type / class?

As shown at Zhome.com, there are instances where the last "production number" reported exceeds and sometimes overlaps onto the next series of numbers. Conversely, there are instances where the serial numbers seem to far outweigh what has been shown to be the case. N.B.: The "first" 500 Z's were 1969.... but apparently there are no records nor reports of the extremely low serial numbers, which gives #26 and 27 added import.

Re U.S. Market and popularity of the Z, and sophistication of the market:

In hindsight it is easy to determine and assign what made the Z so popular, or what should or shouldn't have been offered. However, it is important to remember that what was happening during the late 60's and not the mid-70's are the driving factors that helped determine what Mr. K decided would be acceptable to the U.S. market.

The North American market (including Canada) up until then had been the primary market of the primary U.S. auto companies. Although there were a few NON-U.S. manufacturers that could supply a limited amount of market share, their implied and perceived threat to the "Big 3" was considered negligible.

Product quality, reliability, functionality, and lastly appeal were expected and respected of only a few European companies. The "other" brands were seen as "adequate" for their market, but lacking for the American market. The sellable ones were imported, the esoteric by those with money, and the "practical" or highly desireable by everyone else.

Japanese manufacturers, unfortunately, were held in very low regard. There was a very long time when the phrase "Made In Japan" was eschewed as a laughable declaration of an inadequate, cheaply made, poor quality product.

Bringing a product to market that exceeds that market's need, desireability, value, and/or a number of other factors, is a sure fire way of going broke. Technology / products exchanged from such a disparity are what can be labeled as "magic", "miraculous", "innovative" or "KITSCH".

Trying to introduce a 5 speed gear box to a society that has accepted the automatic transmission as a justified and rightfully deserved luxury, ignores the fact that the vast majority of the buying public was NOT the sports car enthusiast who would have known how to discern the benefit of a 5 speed transmission, but rather Mr Suburban Commuter and Mrs Home Housewife. They wanted it easy, reliable and most importantly...cheap. With Detroit selling 3 speed on the column, and a few 4 on the floor models and lots of automatics, it would have been perceived as unnecessary.

The average American would not have placed a strong need on a 5 speed transmission since at that time there was no perception of a need to conserve fuel. Allowing your 2 ton behemoth to run at 4500 rpm when you were cruising the road was what it was built for, after all it's 20 gallon gas tank cost slightly more than a few bucks to fill.

Additionally, American vehicles came equipped with lots of big bulky powerful engines that required additional bulky and power robbing accouterments that powered equally monstrous behemoths of steel down the highway at an amazing level of acceleration and speed. Remember, the biggest sellers of that era were still the Ford Galaxie 500's, the Plymouth Fury, the Dodge Charger, the Oldsmobile Cutlass, the Chevrolet Impala. Yes, there was the Mustang, the Corvair and other smaller vehicles (than the aforementioned), but these were the NEW introductions during that era and NOT the "average". If I recall correctly, each one of these vehicles came with a V8 engine as STANDARD equipment.

Japanese car manufacturer's were fighting a battle of perception, need, useability and one other item...import tariffs. The only items that could traverse that imposed block to trade were those that could be made with the least cost and the least tariff. Anything that could truly compete against Detroit had been conveniently and effectively barred from market by the simple tariff on imported steel, rubber, and other items as well as the car as a whole.

So how do you introduce something and make money at it.

Well, that's when OPEC started growing some fangs. That's also about the time that Israel had escalated it's programs and irritated it's neighbors, and as part of the consequences, raised prices of oil to the U.S..

Suddenly the benefits of the smaller car became more apparent.

The market then began investigating those items it had previously ignored.

Mr K's efforts to bring to the North American market a pleasant vehicle reminiscent of some of the finest European designs, with a strong and spirited engine that handled extremely well and was cheap to operate and most importantly was cheap to buy.....he tapped in on each of the major objections to the product.

Could he have added items that would have increased it's utility, sportiness, desireability etc? Undoubtedly. But the tariffs were used as a protection mechanism for Detroit for many years. Giving more than what was originally offered may in fact have boosted sales even more, but when production can't meet the demand for the basic product, ADDING to the product would have been counter-productive, it would have actually reduced production, and would have added a higher level of accountability and hence, more costs. When you're selling an item with a 6 month wait, you can literally produce what you want and the demand will snap it up.

Although the desireability of "if they'd only..." type of items is readily perceived in THIS day and age, it is only after we became exposed to other markets...long after much of the relaxation of tariffs, and long after the markets have reached a more equitable trading field. Not only in the level of sophistication of the buyer, but also in the sophistication of the seller to perceive present and future expectations.

If you'll recall, the onus of having bought a Japanese car was a very big hurdle for the average Joe in the later 60's, not until the early 70's did you see that begin to disappear.

Enrique

[Bambikiller240]

People seem to think that because we are discussing this now (in 2005) that the desire for things like a 5 speed wasn't known at the time the 240Z arrived on these shores. That's not the case. It was often discussed in trade magazines, and at race events by enthusiasts as well. Also, I wonder what was the percentage of Manual Transmission equipped 240Z's v.s Automatic Transmission equipped 240Z's? 50/50? 60/40? 70/30? Maybe 40/60? (I don't think so, but I really don't know) You sure don't find many of them (Auto Trans Z's) around these days. The Auto trans seemed to be more accepted in the 280Z, 2+2, and ZX models.

I must point out that the 240Z was/is a 2 Seat Sports car, not a 4 Seat Muscle car (like the the Ford Galaxie 500's, the Plymouth Fury/Road Runner/Barracuda, the Dodge Charger/Challenger, the Oldsmobile Cutlass/442, the Chevrolet Impala/Nova. or the Rustang. The Z was smaller and weighed far less than the cars previously mentioned and seated only 2. The Z cars competed directly against the European Sports cars imported to North America, and indirectly against a few of the smaller American car's (but the Corvair was gone about the time the Z car first arrived). The Z was not marketed as a family car, or Muscle car. It was a Sports/GT, and a 2 Seater at that. Apples and Oranges IMO. It carved out it's own niche in the market largely from Baby Boomers who were coming of age, had no children, and wanted something exciting and different. They were disatisfied with the quality and style and range of products from Detroit. A lot of us (in that demographic) already had manual trans equipped cars and considered them desirable.

I don't really think that tarriffs had much to do with the ability of Japanese auto imports to compete in North America. The way I recall the situation, Nissan shipped as many Z cars as they could manufacture to the USA. They were (no doubt) manufactured to a certain price point, but that point did not seem to be a hinderance to the marketplace. No threat to the "Big Three" was perceived at that time by anyone (least of all the Big Three themselves). No threat was recognized for some time, (around the mid to late 70's AIR) well after the 240Z had established it's (and Nissan's) presence in the North American marketplace. Even then tariffs didn't stop (or slow) imports, the threat of tariffs was used as a wedge to "encourage" Nissan, Toyota, and Honda establish plants in the US but that's about it.

Another interesting point is that about the time Mr. K left the USA was when the Z cars began to morph into larger, more cushy "American" styled cars.

I do agree with the statement that......."When you're selling an item with a 6 month wait, you can literally produce what you want and the demand will snap it up." No doubt about that. I believe that this is what kept the Z car from being offered with upgraded equipment more than anything else.

[Carl Beck]

Carl S wrote:

>People seem to think that because we are discussing this now (in

>2005) that the desire for things like a 5 speed wasn't known at the

>time the 240Z arrived on these shores. That's not the case. It was

>often discussed in trade magazines, and at race events by

>enthusiasts as well. Also, I wonder what was the percentage of

>Manual Transmission equipped 240Z's v.s Automatic Transmission

>equipped 240Z's? 50/50? 60/40? 70/30? Maybe 40/60? (I don't think

>so, but I really don't know) You sure don't find many of them (Auto

>Trans Z's) around these days. The Auto trans seemed to be more

>accepted in the 280Z, 2+2, and ZX models.

Hello Carl.

You are of course correct, there were enthusiasts that wanted a 5spd. and of course, finding nothing else wrong with the 240-Z the automotive magazines writers did have to say something negative (just to appear balanced). Although I thought that the cheap diamond patterned vinyl provided them with something negative to say

If the enthusiast wanted a 5spd. he had only to tell his Dealer. It was easily ordered through the Parts Dept. and easily installed by the Service Dept. A brand new 5spd. cost $375.00 in 1970/73. (of course you could change the gear sets as well). If you were poor.. you went to the junkyard and got one out of the 2000 roadster, then purchased the parts necessary to convert it to the Z from Datsun Competition and installed it yourself.) I know several of people that did that.... most simply changed the rear gear.

Nonetheless the 240-Z really was aimed at a far larger market as you suggest. The 240Z was by design a "Sports/GT", not a pure "Sports Car" in the more British sense of the term. Nor was it strictly a "Grand Touring Car"... It was by design a well balanced combination of the two, that was intended to have far broader appeal than either individually.

The 240-Z was aimed at putting traditionally American "non sports car buyers".. into their first Sports/GT. Mr. K didn't want to just capture market share in the Sports Car market.. he really wanted to greatly expand the market, to include new buyers. Mr. K wanted to sell Sports/GT's to people that had never bought them before.

Most Americans didn't buy the traditional Sports Cars because they were for the most part underpowered, harsh riding and cramped. Coming from Great Britain, Italy and Germany they did not enjoy a reputation for quality nor reliability. They were all but strictly "enthusiast's" cars.

The 240-Z was also aimed at gaining market share in the "Second Family Car" market here in the US. Much the same as many compact cars were at the time from the Big Three. You didn't "Sell" the "compacts" from Ford, GM, Chrysler as "Family Cars" (at least that was not how they trained you to sell them) ... you sold them as Second cars for the family. Believe me, I sold a ton of 240-Z's rationalized as the perfect second car for the family.. The 240-Z offered more "utility" than any mere sports car of the era.. and as much utility as a Pinto or Vega (hatch backs).. 95% of their time driving, Mom or Dad were in the car by themselves anyway, so a two passenger car made perfect sense as a second car. (please sign right here ...).

Features and the benefits of them, had to be rationalized in the buyers mind, before they would sign on the dotted line... The 240-Z was loaded with features and benefits that made it easy to rationalize as the second family car. (a side benefit was it was COOL... and BEAUTIFUL...a more Positive Image for the driver and it offered Datsun reliability)

Since I sold these cars for a couple years.. I can only tell you about our Customers... Most (75% or more) had never even considered buying a "Sports Car" before they saw the 240-Z.. they simply liked the looks of the 240-Z and it was in the price range of other cars they were looking at. Of our 151 Z Car Original Owners... only about 32 of them had owned a Sports Car before...

The Z was everything the traditional sports car weren't. The Z was roomy, rode well on it's fully independent suspension, was powerful and smooth, and it had Datsun's reputation for reliability.

We received maybe one out of 20 240-Z's with A/T... I don't know if that was typical or not. But it seemed to be. A few people simply had spouses that refused to drive a stick shift... so the compromise was the Z with an A/T. I do not recall any of my customers wishing for a 5spd. (some of the people I raced or autoX'ed with did).

Carl S wrote:

>It carved out it's own niche in the market largely from Baby Boomers who were

>coming of age, had no children, and wanted something exciting and different.

>They were disatisfied with the quality and style and range of products from

>Detroit. A lot of us (in that demographic) already had manual trans equipped

>cars and considered them desirable.

In a general sense I'd agree that the Baby Boomers were an important segment. More so for the influence they had on their parents. However, by it's original definition the Baby Boomers were born between 1948 and 1956..Now it seems to be defined as 1946 to 1962.. In 1970 the oldest Baby Boomer was 24 and not quite yet out of College.. or just out looking for a first job. They were also just the tip of the iceberg for the huge swelling of the population to follow. From 1970 to 1973 they really weren't that large a segment of the buyers.

Most of the people that I sold 240-Z's too were between the ages of 28 to 38. Most(when I say most here I mean at least 80%) were married, most had at least one child. The vast majority had above average incomes, in the professions or trades (school teachers, engineers, architects, carpenters, draftsmen, contractors, small business owners etc.). I was 25 at the time, and I can tell you that I sold very few 240-Z's to people my age. Most people my age were buying 510's, 1200's and Pick-up's. (all below $2,500.00).

For the most part my buyers were simply looking for something "special" to reward themselves with, while still making a rational purchase. I'd say that 95+% of them never raced, never auto-crossed, never used their Z as a "Sports Car". (just as 95+% of SUV never leave the paved highways).

I would certainly agree that they were dissatisfied with the offering from Detroit at the time and they were looking for something "different".

Carl S wrote:

>I don't really think that tarriffs had much to do with the ability of Japanese

>auto imports to compete in North America."

You are correct. In 1970/73 there were no tariffs on Japanese automobiles coming into the US. Protective tariffs were common in Europe, carried over from the reconstruction after WW-II. A tariff was later placed on "commercial vehicles".. which caught the Pick-up (so they were simply shipped without their bed, then "assembled in the USA")

Carl S wrote:

>Another interesting point is that about the time Mr. K left the USA was when

>the Z cars began to morph into larger, more cushy "American" styled cars.

Actually, the same process of market research that lead to the 240-Z for the US, also lead to the 280ZX for the US. While you and I didn't like it as much... the 280ZX sat new sales records. The Z evolved with the generation of people that originally purchased it. As they got older, the feedback they gave Nissan was that they wanted more luxury (power windows, power steering, cruise and GOOD A/C)... The mistake that Nissan made was not coming to market with another car that the younger generation wanted... to keep them in the Datsun/Nissan fold. Of course the other mistake was to change the Brand Name at the same time... da....

I personally believe that if Mr. K had stayed in the US, those major mistakes would not have been made by Nissan.

Carl S wrote:

>I do agree with the statement that......."When you're selling an item with a 6

>month wait, you can literally produce what you want and the demand will snap it >up."

I'd phrase that somewhat differently to reflect the actual situation. "When you're selling an item with a 6 month wait, you ARE producing what the customers want.. don't screw with it!!

anyway, just my perspectives...

kind regards,

Carl B.

[HS30-H]

...Regarding the numbers of cars based on reported serial numbers.

Were these ACTUAL production figures or were they based on the projection of serial numbers to be assigned to that model type / class?

As shown at Zhome.com, there are instances where the last "production number" reported exceeds and sometimes overlaps onto the next series of numbers. Conversely, there are instances where the serial numbers seem to far outweigh what has been shown to be the case. N.B.: The "first" 500 Z's were 1969.... but apparently there are no records nor reports of the extremely low serial numbers, which gives #26 and 27 added import.

Hi Enrique,

Since nobody else ( as far as I am aware ) has posted any serial / VIN number information on this thread apart from me, I presume you are referring to the figures that I posted - which relate to Japanese market models declared manufactured in 1969. Correct?

I posted production figures supplied directly by Nissan Shatai ( the people that made the things ) and also Japanese government ministry records which show the VIN numbers of cars declared manufactured during the 1969. All of the numbers I posted are for JAPANESE market cars, as one of the first posts on this thread quoted "300" cars manufactured for the Japanese market during the 1969 calendar year - which was clearly wrong.

Compare these figures to what you see on 'zhome.com' regarding the "first 500" at your leisure. I don't recall seeing ANY mention of the 1969 S30 and S30-S models on that site, and one would be forgiven for imagining that they did not even exist. The irony of seeing Carl Beck posting on this thread - completely ignoring the subject under discussion in the title of the thread, surprise surprise - was not lost on me. Gave me a wry smile, actually. But nevertheless, here is a 1969-build Fairlady being very relevant - in its own thread - and providing interesting conversational matter......

As far as I am aware, zhome.com does not show any information on production quantities provided by Nissan Shatai, or from any Japanese government ministry ( I wonder if a Japanese ministry would have VIN number records for exported cars? ). It seems that the information on the "first 500" ( that's a nice round figure isn't it? ) HLS30-U models on zhome.com is compiled mainly from US-based sources, and somewhat anecdotally to boot. As a guide to what was received in the USA and Canada it may very well be a good source, but what was actually made in Japan could be another thing entirely.

Regarding the figures from Nissan Shatai - these are the quantities that Nissan Shatai recorded that they manufactured. We don't have any 100% reliable information that indicates whether all of these cars were assigned a VIN number, or which of them actually made it into the ownership of a private individual ( although Kats has had a very valiant stab at deciphering the numbers for the "Export" cars quoted ).

As for the 'Shatai Bango, Ichi Ran Hyo' figures submitted to the Japanese ministry by 'Nihon Jidosha Kogyo Kai', these relate to VIN numbers assigned to Japanese market vehicles, broken down by VIN prefix type and year of manufacture. Pull them apart at your leisure. As I pointed out when I posted them, they don't completely correspond with the Nissan Shatai figures but they DO purport to list actual VIN numbers stamped onto car bodies. They are better than nothing, and I think the 'truth' ( whatever that is ) probably lies in how the figures are deciphered and what is counted ( and not counted ) in the Nissan Shatai figures.

If you want to argue that the figures I have posted could be incorrect, then you are welcome to make that observation. However, this thread was started in reference to the car wearing VIN number S30-00144 which is CERTAINLY one of more than 900 'S30' VIN prefixed cars to have been manufactured before the end of 1969, and was almost certainly manufactured during November of that year.

Alan T.

[EScanlon]

Alan:

Yes I was referring to the information you gave, not to question nor impugn it's validity, but so that a better clarification could be read and...in essence....stored for future reference within the same environment as it was discussed in....this forum.

As you have sometimes pointed out, a large segment of the information available on the internet with regards to the Z, is truncated, non-verifiable, and sadly incomplete where it isn't conjecture. While it's easy to cast off the validity of Zhome due to inaccuracies that have been pointed out (the first 500), a point needs to be made that it gained it's reputation for being a fountain of knowledge because people passed it on as a reference for the material....BECAUSE THERE WERE NO OTHER SOURCES.

As we have these "discussions", let's clarify to enhance the information available and try to maintain a better standard of information.

In my opinion, your post is exactly what I enjoy about these discussions. It is informative, the information presented is self-supporting and what is more, is verifiable with the level of information given. That is what I think you would like Zhome to have, unfortunately not everyone has access to the data as you've had due to your job. (Wanna discuss Doors? That's what I sell.) So your reply was perfect!

The only reason I commented was that at a manufacturing company I worked at years ago, the ONLY serial numbers assigned to ANY of the valves manufactured were given to those that were SHIPPED. Internal test, use or .... were not serialized at all. In the initial run-up of a valve specification, it wouldn't be unusual to see the first 100 or more, go to testing. These weren't serialized, except for the internal control marks. If we had serialized each one, the first one out the door might have had number 1234. In those situations, sometimes in the change over, (as the model valve was being superseeded) you would still have orders in house (being manufactured) for the model that was being replaced. Rather than count up the total of orders in house, orders in process, and orders being expected from existing quotes, a "range" of numbers would be tacked onto the "end" of the serial number.

Simply put, we'd be up to number 4,567, and at a rough guess we could expect no more than 400 future valves to ship, so we'd "pad" the number to 5100, i.e. over 100 MORE than the actual run.

We were interested in knowing approximately how many of those valves were out there so that we could supply replacement parts before we could rely on that model valve being gone from use and no longer require the spare parts inventory. The serial number gave us the product make-up based on when in the total manufacturing process it was made. Remember, as they went OUT the door they were serialized and not till then.

I don't know the method by which Datsun measured their numbers. Since it involved automobiles, I presumed that their record controls would be much more stringent than ours were. As a result, when the numbers were "fuzzy", and based on my breadth of experience, I questioned whether they were production or posted (shipped, in my old job).

Your post helps clarify that.

Enrique

[Carl Beck]

>Alan wrote:

>Hi Enrique,

>Since nobody else ( as far as I am aware ) has posted any serial / VIN number

>information on this thread apart from me, I presume you are referring to the

>figures that I posted - which relate to Japanese market models declared manufactured

>in 1969. Correct?

>

>I posted production figures supplied directly by Nissan Shatai ( the people that made

>the things )

Hello Alan:

Is what you supplied, related to the production numbers supplied by Nissan Shatai, something different than the picture of the Production Schedule supplied to Kats, and which he published on this forum in an earlier discussion? Did Nissan Shatai supply different information directly to you?

>and also Japanese government ministry records which show the VIN numbers of cars

>declared manufactured during the 1969.

Reviewing the Posts.. I do not see any VIN numbers. Where did you put them? All I see is a reported total, broken down only into two categories... ie. the number of 432's and all other. Most certainly not a complete listing of VIN's.

If I understood Enrique's post, that was what he was getting at.. we don't see a complete listing of VIN's released by the factory.

For those following the thread, a Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) is comprised of two parts, the first being model information and the second being the chassis serial number..ie. HLS30 00500 would be a VIN.

>All of the numbers I posted are for JAPANESE market cars, as one of the first

>posts on this thread quoted "300" cars manufactured for the Japanese market

>during the 1969 calendar year - which was clearly wrong.

Actually, if you want to get specific, it's you that are wrong. The statement was.."It seems the first batch of 500 240z heading for america and the 300 or so Fairladys that stayed in Japan were made in the last three months of 1969."

As written the statement is correct... the first 500 240-Z's as well as the first 300 or so Fairldays that stayed in Japan were made in the last three months of 1969. The actual total numbers may have been higher... but the statement makes no reference to totals nor limits, minims nor maximums.

The additional information related to the totals.. was interesting and IMHO should have been offered as "additional information", more so than a correction of wrong information.

But then reviewing your Post... "All" of the numbers you Posted were most certainly NOT for JAPANESE market cars, as you also listed and commented on the "Export" numbers as well.

>Compare these figures to what you see on 'zhome.com' regarding the "first 500" at your

>leisure.

Yes, I invite everyone to do just that. Please see:

http://zhome.com/History/69ZArticle.html

Please define and report specifically any information there that is "inaccurate". Every effort has been made to report clearly what we actually find. Where the owners of these cars have allowed, we also list them with additional information on the Z Car Registers. There you find not only the VIN's, but the Date of Manufacture, the Original Engine Serial Number, the Owners and their e-mail addresses.

Where you quote reported totals by categories for the JDM cars. We list the actual complete VIN's of the cars found to be still in existence. The title of the Article is; "Finding The Remaining 1969 Production Year 240-Z's"

A brief review of the article will also show that I discuss the fact that VIN's above 00500 were found and are reported. Nonetheless, the statement "the first 500 Datsun 240Z's were produced in 1969 is still correct. Quite possible the number is something greater than that.. but as EScanlon pointed out.. we still do not know how many of the units shown on a Production Schedule, actually received chassis serial numbers. For that matter we do not know exactly when that picture was taken, nor if that is a forward forecast (which production schedules usually are) or documentation of actual units produced, or some combination of the two.

>I don't recall seeing ANY mention of the 1969 S30 and S30-S models on that site,

>and one would be forgiven for imagining that they did not even exist.

As I have repeatedly told you Alan.. I personally have only a minor side interest in the JDM Nissan Fairladys. So I have absolutely no motivation to spend MY time publishing information just to please you. Quite frankly it's silly of you to expect me to.

I told you honestly and forthrightly that in my opinion, and the opinions of most automotive historians the real story of the Z Car, is the story of the DATSUN 240-Z.

The JDM Fairlady's are simply an interesting side note in the overall history of the Z Car. About 10% of the total, sold only in Japan, they represent a few additional sales of what was from the beginning intended by Nissan to be an Export model. (as were all Sports Cars from Nissan after WW-II).

As I offered in our first e-mail exchange on this subject in Nov. of 2001, if you think the information is worth sharing with the Z Car Community, then write interesting articles, document the facts as best you can, .. and we would be glad to publish it on the Z Car Home Page. I'm sure many people would be interested. I'm always interested in learning more about them, just not interested in spending my time doing the research and documentation.

All the information on the Z Car Home Page, intended to be shared with the Z Car Community, has been freely contributed by people with an interest in the subjects they research and write about.

On average "the Z Car Home Page" is visited 45,000 times per month, and an average four different articles per visit are called upon. (numbers taken three years ago, before we removed the hit counters -I'm sure it has increased by now).

Instead of constantly criticizing the work of others, bemoaning the fact that for 90% of us the JDM Nissan Fairlady Z's are simply an interesting side trip to our main interests in the Datsun 240-Z's that we own ... I'd suggest that if you actually want Fairlady Z information on the Z Car Home Page; you simply do the work that everyone else does. Write the articles, gather the pictures, encode the html formats and submit them.

As I do exercise editorial control over the site, I will publicly state that I will be glad to publish well written and factual information related to the Fairlady Z's submitted by anyone willing to do the work.

I will farther state that I will not support a wacked out opinion that Nissan Motors Ltd. Japan, just got lucky with their Z Car and just happened to sell more than expected in the USA. Nor that the Z Car was actually intended to be anything other than an export model, aimed squarely at the US market. (as extensively documented by Mr. K and Mr. Matsuo themselves in numerous places).

>The irony of seeing Carl Beck posting on this thread - completely ignoring the subject

>under discussion in the title of the thread, surprise surprise - was not lost on me.

I wouldn't expect it to be lost on you Alan, as you have now posted four off topic Posts to this thread yourself. The topic was a request for the value of one Fairlady Z located in the US... For that matter I haven't seen anyone answer the question in any specific manor.

So I will, in my opinion it would sell for between $500.00 and $1500.00 USD.

>Gave me a wry smile, actually. But nevertheless, here is a 1969-build Fairlady being

>very relevant - in its own thread - and providing interesting conversational matter......

Yes, if you disregard the original request .... which every one of your Posts, and most others including mine did.. ie. what is the car worth?... or where are links that I can find the information at??". I will grant that it is one of the few threads we see that "was" specifically about a Fairlady Z, even though it was about selling it ....

FWIW,

Carl

[v12horse]

Carl, you have got to be kidding about the value of this car. Here we have an extremely early Fairlady Z and you think it is worth what a normal 240z is worth in need of a restoration. That is absolute blasphemy! If this were a thread about an early 240z, people would be interested, but nowhere near as interested as people are SINCE it is a Fairlady Z. Get with the program; most people love Fairlady Z’s. I prefer not to criticize people, but you have just put down everything that I believe in as far as Z’s go. The difference between you and Alan, is that you get defensive and say that Fairlady Z’s are an afterthought and that they don’t matter because they were only sold in Japan. With Alan, it is clear that he has an interest for the home market cars, but he still talks with the utmost respect about export models.

I have talked with Matsuo-san personally and he told me that the Z was meant to be a worldly car; one that would be acceptable in all countries. Thus, each export market had a slightly different variation. Where do you get that it was only intended for the US? It is very arrogant to say that. It is quite clear that the domestic market got the best of the variations. Not only did they get the best, but also, they got the most pure of them all. You know all the specifications; so I don’t need to spoon-feed you which engines, bodies, and other options that the JDM cars have that make them SUPERIOR to the export cars.

Your site has very little information on Fairlady Z’s, and the information that it has seems as if it was extracted from Brian Long’s book. It is sad that there is not a website (not forum) that is truly dedicated to the Fairlady Z’s that is in English. We have all these Internet capabilities, yet most of the world outside Japan is still in the dark about these magnificent cars; I am still in the dark about them as I am learning slowly. Carl, you are a person with a wealth of knowledge on the subject of the early Z’s, but it seems that you would not mind just ignoring everything Fairlady Z. You say you do not mind people posting on Zhome about JDM cars, but you are not very assuring.

You also may argue about the early Works rally cars as being 240z’s and not being home market cars, but they are much more of a 432-R body than a 240z.

I love Z’s in general, but I am most interested in Fairlady Z’s as I strongly believe that they are the purist form of a Z. I don’t think I will ever part with my 260z, but I plan that it will be my first and last export model. This is not only for my interests, but for the interests of others who like me, have been in the dark about Fairlady Z’s.

-Ben

[Bambikiller240]

Some people are taking this 240Z v.s Fairlady too seriously. Different versions of essentially the same car (S30). One "better" than the other? Better for what? For whom? What was deemed "better" by the factory (Nissan) for the various different selling markets may still apply. "Most" people love the _ _ _ _ _ _ version? Anything to back that up? Maybe the lack of an English language website about "these cars" indicates a relative lack of interest in them outside the home market? How many people outside the US are interested in Edsels, or Buicks? Enough to support a website about them written in Arabic?

I think Mr. Beck encouraged people to provide data for publication on his website. It's (IMO) unreasonable to expect him to expend his time and effort on something that he doesn't wish to.

Value of a JDM car (which located in the USA) that needs restoration may be compromised by the serious difficulty in finding parts to accomplish a proper resto on it. Look at how much trouble people have in sourcing parts for #0026/0027, and #0215 North American market cars (Chris' and Mark's cars)

None of this is meant to devalue anyone's interest in any version of S30.

[26th-Z]

Y'all make me laugh. Thanks.

A 1969 produced Fairlady - VIN 144 - in poor condition, not running, with floor and frame rail rust issues, requiring full restoration but quite salvageable is worth between $3,500 and $7,000 in the United States. It may be worth more on the East coast than the West coast, but it is only worth what someone is willing to pay and accept at any given time. Those numbers are close to what the last four double-digit VIN cars in comparable condition I have seen trade for. This Fairlady may very well start, but I am not under the impression that she is a driver. Princess 27 was a dead toad and I paid $2,350. Carl Beck, you’re dreaming! Nice condition drivable Fairladys have been selling in the high teens to low twenties over the last year-and-a-half.

A buyer should expect to spend over $30,000 to restore the car to show condition and I will use the Vintage Z program quality as a guideline. Easily $30,000. The same car completed is worth $35,000 and up. If you all think I would part with my "common" low VIN cars after they are complete for anything less, you need to go home, close the doors and windows and have a good cry. The last few Vintage Zs have traded in the high $20s to low $30s.

Chris

[texasz]

Actually, I would have to agree with Carl's vauleation of this car. It was only late last year that another early Fairlady sold on eBay for about this...and we all know how people tend to over pay on eBay sometimes getting caught up in the excitement of the bidding.

I also must agree with Bambi's statements about sourcing parts for a Fairlady restoration...personally I have a series I and find if VERY difficult to locate some parts for this car and it's a US market car.

[Bambikiller240]

........ The last few Vintage Zs have traded in the high $20s to low $30s.

Chris

I'll skip comment on the rest of the post, but would you care to elaborate on the above quote? I've seen one V..... Zcar sell for mid $20's ($27K IIRC, and it was advertised for sale for years), and haven't seen or heard of ANY even approaching $30K in years.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4533097490&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT

currently at $20.1K