Discover various "date",use cross-reference method

[kats]

Hello,

I think we always love to talk about build date of the Zcar,Alan T. and 26th-Z,I think we talked about this before,please everyone join here everyone. I hope this thread will help me/someone develop my/his idea and imagine when ROUGHLY my/his Zcar was born.

Ok,let's start listing of my 240Z's "date" which I found so far.

"21020" speedometer back face,I think "21st Feb 1970"

"70 02" a tag on a harness infront of a radiator,near dual horns,"Feb 1970"

"12 1969" Seat belt tags

"03/70" plate above a driver's door striker

So,the plate above a driver's door striker shows reasonable date.I think I can say door striker's date should not be earlier than these "parts date" considering the purpose and meaning of the plate.

But could we have a car which has a door striker build date is earlier than each part's date?If it happns,there might be a mistke to stamping a date for the door striker plate.Especialy for early Zcars,I am wondering that Nissan-shatai was doing correctly or not about the date plate.Of course,before doubting this,we have to be sure the parts have not been replaced since the car was born.

If we can gather huge number of relationship of these part's date and door striker's date,we can see a trend in the relationship of part's date and door striker's date.Discover various"date",use cross-reference method.

Then,for Z owners whoes car does not have a date plate above a driver's door striker,they can see and apply the trend of the relationship of part's date and door striker's date.

Let's say,If we can settle down a trend of a Zcar looks rolled out from the factory aprox.one or two month later or just same month of part's date,those Z owners do not have to be worried about lack of door striker's date.

Of course,there might be some exceptions,I know.

Like a engine room harness,speedometer are good chanse to discover the date.They are not likely intended to be replaced,are not they?

I love to guess and think about back in 1969/1970 becuase I was born in 18th JUN 1969.I am very interested in my 03/70 240Z's birthday.

I know about some mania of Fender stratocaster,they are also very very interested in the build date of the guiter.Some rock star want to have the guiter which have a build date exactly same one's birthday.

In my case,I would never find "18th JUN 1969" on early Z cars.The date is too much early for cars which were sold.Could be apply for prototypes.But I have no idea to buy such a rarest car.

P.S.some additional informations,

"45. 3. 27" back of earliest D hubcaps which has big tabs.Means"1970 Mar 27th"(these are which I bought 5years ago from the U.S. Other caps which I have got from Mr.Matsuo do not have date like this,it says only "103 IKI JAPAN")

Also I will check my steering wheel,there should be the date.

kats

[HS30-H]

"21020" speedometer back face,I think "21st Feb 1970"

"70 02" a tag on a harness infront of a radiator,near dual horns,"Feb 1970"

"12 1969" Seat belt tags

"03/70" plate above a driver's door striker

So,the plate above a driver's door striker shows reasonable date.I think I can say door striker's date should not be earlier than these "parts date" considering the purpose and meaning of the plate.

But could we have a car which has a door striker build date is earlier than each part's date?If it happns,there might be a mistke to stamping a date for the door striker plate.Especialy for early Zcars,I am wondering that Nissan-shatai was doing correctly or not about the date plate.Of course,before doubting this,we have to be sure the parts have not been replaced since the car was born.

Hi Kats,

Nice thread idea.

I think we have to think about the 'Law Of Averages' as well as 'Fudge Factor' in this kind of discussion. Considering the amount of companies engaged in manufacturing parts for the Z cars, as well as the natural possibility for parts manufactured, say in January 1970, to be either mixed up close to the production line with parts manufactured in, say February 1970 - you would have imagine that a little bit of crossover in dates or lag would have occurred.

These were the days before the "Just In Time" parts supply system was implemented, so I would guess that a kind of 'rubber band' effect would have been observable in parts supply at that time. With batches of parts being manufactured and date stamped, and then being sent out to Nissan in regular ( or possibly irregular ) shipments, there would - I guess - be times when parts may have sat around for a period of time before being attached to a car, with some later-manufactured pieces 'jumping the queue'? ....

From what I can tell by cross-referencing the dates on my own cars, and from a few others, it seems as though the Law Of Averages shows that most parts were used within a month or two of being made ( this is what you are seeing on your own car, isn't it? ). That's just me comparing and cross-referencing the date stamps and marks found on each one of my cars - if you see what I mean.

Let's say,If we can settle down a trend of a Zcar looks rolled out from the factory aprox.one or two month later or just same month of part's date,those Z owners do not have to be worried about lack of door striker's date.

I don't think anybody who has a non-USA market model should be "worried" about not having the door jamb tag, if that is what you are saying? If it is not supposed to be there, then what is there to worry about?

It seems to me that the door jamb tags of the HLS30-U models are not really the most reliable source of actual manufacturing date on these cars. Simply having a month of manufacture stamped into them must mean that some will be at least four weeks more accurate than others. That's not close enough for me! ( I want to know the DAY it had its OK sticker signed and slapped onto it, and even that might not be the same day as it reached the end of the production line! ).

Added to that, there is also the question of exactly where and when the door jamb tags were stamped and attached to the cars......... Do you remember I told you before about my old Izakaya friend Mr Tsukamoto ( now sadly passed away ) who used to work for Nissan during the period we are concerned with here? We had some discussions once about the door jamb tags on an HLS30-U that a friend of mine had imported to Japan as a project car, and we were not sure that the door jamb tag was the correct one for the car ( we thought it had been altered and switched from another - later - car ). Anyway, Tsukamoto san laughed at us when we asked him how accurate the door jamb tag should be. He told us that they were sometimes attached at Hommoku Wharf just before the cars were put on the transporter ships, and were stamped according to the shipping schedule - and how many cars would fit onto each sailing schedule. He even hinted that there were cases where tags were sent to the USA after the container ships sailed ( and presumably attached to cars in the USA ).

I don't think this would drastically affect the noted 'manufacturing date', but I think it would be a good idea for us to treat the door jamb tag dates as - in some cases, but not all - possibly up to a month or two 'out' in comparison to the real production date. Just like all the other components on the car. In short, they are certainly not 'Gospel' truth....

I can't imagine a case where the door jamb tag of a car might pre-date the average date of the components on the car, but it would be great fun if one did turn up.

Just for a little fun, and in comparison to your Kanto Seiki speedometer date stamp Kats, here is a stamp on the back of my tachometer. 13th November 1969?:

[26th-Z]

Hi Kats!

You propose a good method to establish a build date. So many people have questions about model years and build dates! I searched the archives for "date stamp" and there are several conversations about individual part dates and the meaning of the markings. Is you picture the back of your speedometer?

Chris

[26th-Z]

I'll add to your answer Alan. HLS30-00026 is door date stamped 11/69 and HLS30-00027 is door date stamped 10/69.

[HS30-H]

I'll add to your answer Alan. HLS30-00026 is door date stamped 11/69 and HLS30-00027 is door date stamped 10/69.

,

Thanks, Christopher. "I'm lovin' it"

[kats]

Thank you Alan and 26th-Z,

Like you two,enthusiasts who have cars disassembling and rebuilding inprogress are very helpful for this kind of topic.I can ask many details which usually I can not look into them unless I disassemble them.

But for a speedometer,it is easy to see from underneith of a dash.Yes,that attached photo is mine.

Alan,I see what you are saying!I was expecting that.What I am going to say about "be worried" is just wondering how non-U.S. owners regard(guess/imagine) their car's build date.But Alan,you told us the story of Tsukamoto-san,of cource I remember that,it gives me a new point of view.

We should re-consider about door jam tag,do not we?Before I heard the Tsukamoto-san story,I had never doubted accurasy of the door jam tag.But now,I think that not to rely on it all the time.I do not say the door jam tag is not worth at all.Anyway, it shows MONTH of car's built.But even MONTH,there could be an error.This is my thought,especially for 1969 cars,seems Nissan shatai was not so systematic about building cars.Alan's post about Tsukamoto-san is showing it,I think.

And remember,earliest U.S.240Zs(1969 production) had to wait for departure because of having problem which U.S.Nissan claimed to Nissan HQ.Many of Nissan excutives said "about 3 months" they hold U.S.240Z at the factory.I have been searching what was a problem(I was told they were steering vibration and road noise and vibration from the rear differencial) and what they did for those U.S.240Zs?They replaced and add what parts?Remember the U.S. and Canada test driving crew reported finally U.S.Nissan accepted a new 240Z which equipped advance parts arrived by air on 20th DEC 1969.

So at least,I think they hold 1969 U.S.240Zs until very late DEC 1969.Tsukamoto-san's story happened after these holding days cancelled,what do you think of it?

The data from Nissan shatai,they made 97 export Zs in DEC 1969.388 export Zs in NOV,so U.S.Nissan began to claim between NOV and DEC I guess.

Alan,you love this,in DEC 1969, 688 japanese Zs were made.We do not see 12/69 door jam tag so many,do we?I guess there were so few U.S.240Zs in DEC 1969.Most of the DEC 1969 export Zs could be LHD 240Z for other nations and RHD 240Z!!(I know we could have HS30 and HLS30(240Zs except U.S.)from May 1969)

In JAN 1970, 1010 export Zs were made.Looks Nissan shatai was released from the holding,once they made cars,they do want to hold cars otherwise limited spacing and cars get to deteriolate going to be a problem.

Let's discover "date",26th-Z can be a pioneer of finding a trend of parts date and VIN and door jam tag.You could tell us accurasy of the door jam tag,or roughness and mistake of the door jam tag.

26th & 27th,I think I'll never find such a good chance to use cross-reference method.You will find why 27th has an one month earlier tag than 26th.Just mistake?or some reason to stay in the factory?I hope you will see the evidence and you will reach the fact as close as you can.Then you can tell us a trend of parts date and door jam tag for early cars.　

Courtesy of Mr.WATANABE's web site,there are so many "date" of his 1969 Fairlady-Z432.Why does he say his Z432 is 1969 made?Of cource his japanese car does not have a door jam tag.He shows "date" on the steering wheel "44,12,3" means 1969 DEC 3rd.And his previous owner shows his car was registerd in very late DEC 1969.So,we can follow his car's date as a good reference.

http://www.geocities.jp/ps30diy/sagyo/oil-p-m/oil-p-m.htm

P.S. I have been worried about door jam tags for 1969 240Zs.Am I only one to feel not so professional touch for punching VIN on the tag?I saw some 1969 door jam tags so far,seems to me always VINs are not beautifully punched.Like this 11/69 HLS30-00476.I am thinking this will be a good sample for rough operation about door jam tag which Alan told us Tsukamoto-san's story.

Thank you,

kats

[26th-Z]

Hi Kats!

I forwarded this conversation to Jim and see if I can get him to join our discussion. Talking with him last night, he seems to recall odd dates from his cars. Now you make me work! I will take photographs of dated parts I have. 27th Z is in storage and not taken apart. I may try to find dates on her parts. Give me some time. I do not have a digital camera!

Did I show you my new Datsun jacket? Here is me with the Kumo tire girls at Sebring last weekend.

[kats]

I did not intend to force you 26th-Z,but I am sorry my post made you feel duty work.We are not in a hurry,no-time restrictions.

When you remember that,please do it for me.Because they are your cars!Your wonderful time with your Zs is yours,yes .

I envy you,with hot girls 26th-Z!!I did not know you have a DATSUN jacket.Looking great in your jacket.

When I cruised Long beach with my Z last year,but there was no hot girl made an offere a navigator in my american Z.I wish I had a lot of muscle!Will make some differences?

kats

[Carl Beck]

Hi Kats (everyone):

Like Alan said, the difference in the day the car was actually completed (driven out the door) between 10/69 and 11/69 could be 1 day, or 62 days. (1 Nov. to 31 Dec.).

Indeed, if as Alan tells us the data plates were put on the cars days or even weeks later, just prior to shipment... that difference in actual completion dates of the cars wouldn't change.

Given that compliance with the US import laws/regulations was the GOAL of having the data plates on the drivers door jam, stamped with the Date Of Manufacture expressed in terms of Month/Year, on the cars headed to North America. Given the production schedules that would have been in existence at the time, it was an easy matter to check a copy of the production schedule, see what month the unit was reported out as finished - then stamp the data plate and affix it to the car.

Really wouldn't have mattered when the data plate itself was stamped and affixed to the car.. the data off the production schedules/reports would have remained the same, and that would have been the audit trail established, and kept on file for the required number of years at the plant.

Production dates and serial numbers required to be recorded, reported and retained by law, are not an insignificant data point. They are used to support compliance audits, to base recalls and/or corrective actions on and later might be used to base legal actions on.

I find it hard to believe that given the typical attention to detail for which the Japanese Auto Manufacturers were noted... that a subject as important as complying with legal requirements would have been handled with such reputed disregard.

When and where the required data tags were put on the car, doesn't mean that the data stamped into them, wasn't accurately transcribed from carefully keep records at the time.

At this point, I see no reason to doubt the accuracy of the data itself. Nor to doubt the integrity of the people charged with recording it.

FWIW,

Carl

Carl Beck

Clearwater, FL

http://ZHome.com

[26th-Z]

Or perhaps advanced carcheology...Photos on the way with a surprise or two for me. I just spent a couple of hours in the shop unpacking boxes and photgraphing dated parts. The other guages have date stamps also. Look for a date stamp on the dashboard foam directly above the speedo and tach. The dash for 26th-Z was made October 15, 1969, I think. I'll have lots of questions about the stamp. The wiring harness labels have red and blue marker dots on them. What does that mean?

Does anyone have the stamps for the date markings? I made reproduction seat belt labels some time ago and just copied the 9/69 date from my originals. I found more material. Do you want blank labels for your seat belts, Kats? Does anyone else want repro 1969 seat belt labels?

[kats]

Hi,

Please do not delete, Bambikiller240 I like your posts.Sometimes we need a break.

Thank you Carl,I see your statement."At this point" there is no reason to doubt the accuracy of the data itself.I can understand that.

But,I can not stop doubting until I have confirmed there was no mistake.

From your web site,I have been interested these cars,

00789 has a production date of 12/69

00793 has a production date of 12/69

These cars make me doubt the door jam tag.Carl,as you said,once the factory record (report,regard?)00789/00793 as 12/69,then "punching month" was correctly made on the door jam tag.No matter where and when the tag attached on the car.There was no one making a mistake in this loop.

But,I still feel something unusual.A person(I do not really know who was)did not make a mistake of reporting?A person did not make a mistake of punching month?Or these car were made in 12/69,but the VINs like them were given by accident?

Without pointing out some mistakes,I can not explain these cars.

Because,the data sheet from NISSAN shatai shows only 542 export Zs(not only for the U.S.) were made until DEC 1969.Something #700(even they are HLS30-U,just one category) is way beyond.

Please some one gives me a good idea of these 00789/00793 cars.

These cars must have "date" not later than 12/69 on every little parts which should have date on them.I want to inspect these cars.Harness,steeringwheel,gages, etc.These dates should be at or earlier than 12/69.If not,who made a mistake?what was worng?

Simply I want to find something "odd",just for fun.

If I find a mistake related U.S. door jam tag,then what I want to do?

I do not know.Just I am curious about it.

26th-Z,thank you for your offer.Blank tag will be a great item for me!!

P.S. I found the date on the steering wheel,"45 ,3 , 2" means 1970 Mar. 2nd.It was very hard to see,they are almost fading.My spair tire tells "1-70"

And please see rear window defroster relay,when you disconect it from a side bord,you see 3 digits on the screw hole tab.Mine has "003",does this mean 1970 Mar.?

kats

[Bambikiller240]

Thank you very much kats!

It was not I who deleted my post. Someone in "management" must not have a sense of humor.