Discover various "date",use cross-reference method

[HS30-H]

Indeed, if as Alan tells us the data plates were put on the cars days or even weeks later, just prior to shipment... that difference in actual completion dates of the cars wouldn't change.

Agreed. I remember we have had discussions on this site in previous threads as to exactly 'when' our cars could be considered to have been 'born' on the production line ( I think it was on the 'Philosophy' thread? ) and it was clear that for some people this was at a different point in the production process than it was for others. Depends how you want to think about it, I suppose. Personally speaking, I reckon its hard to ignore the feeling that a car has a tangible identity once that serial number has been whacked into the firewall sheetmetal - even if its not 'born' as a car yet...

26th-Z, didn't you at one point mention that you thought the point of 'birth' was when the 'OK' sticker got signed, and slapped on the window? I can't come to terms with that. I keep thinking of cars that had been 'born', but had not passed inspection yet. Did they have delayed birthdays? Sorry, but I feel the cars were 'born' before they got their 'OK' stickers....

Hence my worry about actual and stated completion dates ( as in 'stated' on the door jamb tag ).

Given the production schedules that would have been in existence at the time, it was an easy matter to check a copy of the production schedule, see what month the unit was reported out as finished - then stamp the data plate and affix it to the car.

In English English ( as opposed to American English ) I think we would interpret a 'schedule' as something that is due or planned to happen, rather than as a record of what has happened. For example, I believe the figures Kats obtained from Nissan Shatai are a record of what they actually recorded that they made during the periods concerned - not what they thought they were going to make.

We would have to presume that the door jamb tags should have been stamped and affixed to the cars according to production records, but it seems that this was not rigorously applied ( anomalies have been cited in this thread ). You would have to say that there might have been occasions where it was beneficial or expedient for Nissan to stamp a month on the door jamb tag that matched up with something more important than the actual month of manufacture. I'm thinking of shipping allocations and things like that. Not really fraudulent practice, but little white lies that might help to 'tweak' numbers so that they were better for the company, or better for the dealers in the USA. It is conjectural, but the whole point of me mentioning what Tsukamoto san told me was to make it clear that the whole process of stamping and affixing the door jamb date tags was likely less rigorously performed and policed than we might like to imagine.

Really wouldn't have mattered when the data plate itself was stamped and affixed to the car.. the data off the production schedules/reports would have remained the same, and that would have been the audit trail established, and kept on file for the required number of years at the plant.

Sure, assuming that the production records were accurate in the first place, and that the door jamb tags were stamped and applied to the cars according to those records. It still seems that - in some cases

at least - this was not so....

Production dates and serial numbers required to be recorded, reported and retained by law, are not an insignificant data point. They are used to support compliance audits, to base recalls and/or corrective actions on and later might be used to base legal actions on.

I find it hard to believe that given the typical attention to detail for which the Japanese Auto Manufacturers were noted... that a subject as important as complying with legal requirements would have been handled with such reputed disregard.

****-up or conspiracy then? I think ****-up is far more likely when looking at the whole scenario, with the distinct possibility of a little bit of localised conspiracy or number-tweaking here and there. Nissan were not immune to such practices - especially in their race and rally activities. When you mention 'law' I believe you are referring to American law, and I have to say that there is just as much likelihood of number-tweaking and record changing to avoid falling foul of those laws as there is of Nissan Motor Co. Japan back in 1969/70 adhering strictly to the 'truth' and reporting / recording exactly what did happen.

When and where the required data tags were put on the car, doesn't mean that the data stamped into them, wasn't accurately transcribed from carefully keep records at the time.

True, but it also doesn't mean that it definitely was accurate, does it? For the aforementioned reasons.

At this point, I see no reason to doubt the accuracy of the data itself. Nor to doubt the integrity of the people charged with recording it.

I don't agree. If the door jamb tags stated the actual DAY the car was built, then I might be more inclined to have faith in them. But given that - as you yourself stated - they could possibly represent a period covering TWO months for any car, I think it is hard to think of them as anything other than a rough guide of when any particular car came off the production line. I don't say that they are all inaccurate ( that's unlikely given the scenario ) but that if a few are proved to be wrong then we can only truly have faith in them when they are added into the mix of data to be found on a car, and used to help make an 'average' through cross-reference.

Which is, I think, the point of this thread.

[26th-Z]

My photographs (assuming they turn out well enough...I have my moments...film, you know) won't be back for another 24 hours. I was really surprised last night.

Alan, I simply made the Ok statement to keep the conversation going. I recognize your point. I'll have much more to say when the photos come back from the "1-hour developers".

[EricB]

For our Japan experts, be they Kats or Alan or whomever:

Why/How does the number '44' in your date stamps = 1969?

Similarly why is it when you look at Used Car Classifieds in Japan does it give a similar number in place of what would be the year of the car?

For example on the Victory 50 website there's an ad for a 1972 (昭和47年) GC10 4Dr.

If 44 = 1969 then it makes sense that 47 = 1972 but what does that number refer to?

Does it mean simply that the car is from the 47th year of Japan's total automobile production run, which would put their first car as being produced in 1925 which w/o researching sounds reasonable...

Is that it?

-e

[HS30-H]

Why/How does the number '44' in your date stamps = 1969?

Hi Eric,

These Japanese year dates refer to the year that the incumbent Emperor ascended the throne.

The Japanese Emperor known in the west as 'Hirohito' ascended the throne in 1925. In Japan he was known as Tenno ( Emperor ) 'Showa', so 1925 is the first year of the 'Showa' era...

In the case of the '44' number you see ( a very important year to we Z enthusiasts ) this is actually 'Showa 44', or the 44th year of the reign of Emperor Showa. Just add 25 ( from 1925 ) to get the western ( Gregorian? ) calendar year - so 44+25 = 69 ( 1969 ). Easy isn't it?

It only starts getting difficult when one Emperor passes away and another ascends the throne. Emperor Showa passed away in 1989 ( I think? ) and his son Akihito - known as Emperor 'Heisei' ascended the throne. So we are now ( in 2005 ) in the year Heisei 16 ( I think? ).

You might sometimes see these Japanese dates written as 'S44' or 'H16' - in which case its much easier to understand what they refer to. You might also see both western and Japanese systems being used - for example on some of the components on our cars. Depends on what company was making it, and when.

I hope I explained that properly.

[EricB]

Ooooooooooohhhhh... wow. Ok. Never figured it was anything like that.

Thanks Alan as always...

-e

[mdbrandy]

P.S. I have been worried about door jam tags for 1969 240Zs.Am I only one to feel not so professional touch for punching VIN on the tag?I saw some 1969 door jam tags so far,seems to me always VINs are not beautifully punched.Like this 11/69 HLS30-00476.I am thinking this will be a good sample for rough operation about door jam tag which Alan told us Tsukamoto-san's story.

Kats,

Here's the data plate off HLS30-00215. As you say, the stamping could have been a bit more uniform, but it's not too bad. Most of the items on my car that would have had dates are either faded or have been replaced (e.g., the dash pad I have was replaced by the previous owner with one slightly later). My Seat Belts are 10/69. Any markings on the steering wheel are gone. I'll keep on the lookout as I go through parts on the car.

Great Thread!

[26th-Z]

Hey there Mark! Hello Eric! Glad to see more people into this thread.

The "one-hour photo queen" came through for me again - bless her. In the days when film photography is getting as rare as 240Z parts! How's that for grammar?

These are all photos from 26th-Z. Door tag stamped 11/69. I'm glad Mark posted his 11/69 tag to compare his serial number with. 27th-Z is stamped 10/69 and 26th seems to be out of place for some reason. Look what I found.

I'll start with the gauges under Her Majesty's dash. The dash I had re-covered last year was a spare I bought and used to see if I liked the recovering deal that was going on at the time. 26th's dash is still in one piece - unmolested. The first picture is a stamping on the foam directly above the speedo and tach. It says 44. 10. 15

[26th-Z]

Here are the tags from the wiring harnesses. Notice the different colored dots on the tags. After the part numbers, there is a number inside a little triangle. What is that? Also, what is the black triangle to the left of the part number? The last photo is my surprise. Never expected to see the 11. But it corroborates the door tag!

[kats]

Hi,

Perfect explanation Alan,thank you very much.That kind of topic is very difficult to explain in english for me,but you did great!!I will trace your statement for my english skill test I am going to have in 2 months...Thanks!

mdbrandy,thank you for the attachment.I see what I am feeling about 1969 door jam tag on yours too.Looks like they did not use 5 digits punching machine,they just use one at a time by hand.

26th-Z,great great great!!!You are faster than I expected,you now found one great evidence."69 11" harness has a key,I think Her Majesty was waiting that harness,??If you trace around that harness,you will see more evidence?

Thank you,they are exciting.26th has "69 11" harness,just great.

kats

[26th-Z]

Finding the 11/69 sub harness for the heater fan was a big surprise to me. I think it is also interesting to find the October 15 date on the dash. If we look at your production records, Kats, this date would be significant - meaning 26th could not have been assembled prior to mid October. I will do more research with the cars in Tampa the next time I visit.

[mdbrandy]

Here's a couple of harness tags from #215. The main dash harness date is as expected - 11/69. The Heater control subharness, however, has the right part number, but a totally different look. On the far left bottom, there is a "72", although it is dirty and partially obscured. I surmise that my PO must have pirated the Heater harness out of a 72. This part number stayed the same all the way up until 7/72 according to my fiche. Oh well, lots of history in this car...

[Carl Beck]

Hi Kats / Chris (everyone)

From some of your statements, I am lead to believe that you mentally picture the production processes and techniques in use at Nissan-Shatai in 69/70 to be that of the typical mass production assembly line type.

In effect, your thinking that like the Ford/GM/Chrysler Production facilities of 1960's and 70's one completed car rolled off the assembly line and out the factory door every so many seconds or minutes... Each one sequentially after the other. You are therefore confused or conflicted when #27 is reported completed before #26. (keep in mind that could be only a matter of 1 day difference).

From the business articles in magazines etc of the time, related to Japans then building industrial might, I get the impression that most smaller Japanese automotive assembly plants were either using, or moving toward the use of modular manufacturing systems and techniques; as used for example by Mitsubishi as far back as 1937/39, for the production of the Japanese Zero. (this is actually a significant milestone in the history of industrial progress.. which ultimately had a significant impact on the world's automotive industry).

With modular manufacturing for example, the body shells would most likely have come from one production line in a traditional fashion, at the end of which their VIN would have been stamped into them (conception?)... from there the body shells could have been spread out to several individual "Assembly Teams" on the plant floor, who would have worked as a team to complete each car.

The time spent with any specific Assembly Team would vary, and the order in which the cars reached completion would vary from team to team; and it would vary within the individual teams as well. (the time spent with the Assembly Teams would be the time in the womb;). As each Assembly Team completed a car, it would have been rolled out the door (Birth).

Just looking at the production volumes for 70/71 one would guess (and it would only be a guess) that it would take at least five and maybe as many as ten Assembly Teams to meet the monthly production averages. Oct., Nov. and Dec. of 69 would have been the initial start-up period used to work out the details of how the Assembly Teams would sub-divide the labor/tasks and order/arrange the processes involved etc. Each team may have had five to ten units in process at any given point in time.

If modular manufacturing was used, it would be quite easy to see how on any given day as many as 25 to 50 cars would be pooled up on the plant floor. It would also be easy to see how #27 made it to the door prior to #26 or #36.

Kats, if you get the opportunity maybe you can do some research, with the people at Nissan-Shatai specifically related to what production processes and techniques were used in the plant at that time. If Nissan-Shatai was using modular manufacturing techniques and Quality Teams (Assembly Teams) it might provide some answers to our questions.

FWIW,

Carl

Carl Beck

Clearwater, FL USA

http://ZHome.com