Any ZCCA Judges in the house?

[HS30-H]

Sorry if this is going off at something of a tangent, but can I ask a hypothetical question?

What would the ZCCA judges do if the owner of a non-USA market car turned up at a show and wanted to enter, say, the 'Stock' class? Would he be allowed to enter?

Hypothetical examples I am thinking of for the '240Z' class ( as this is classiczcars.com ) would be Fairlady Z, Fairlady Z-L, Fairlady Z432, Fairlady Z432-R, Fairlady 240Z, Fairlady 240Z-L, Fairlady 240ZG, etc etc.

Or even a non-USA market RHD 'Datsun 240Z' ( for example UK / Australian / NZ market model ) - or, possibly the thing most likely to cause maximum confusion, a non-USA / Canada market LHD 'Datsun 240Z' ( complete with Factory 5-speed, rear anti-roll bar, stiffer springs, dampers, front ARB and lots of other market-specific Factory items ).

Are the ZCCA-sanctioned events for USA-market only vehicles?

My Fairlady 240ZG was ( rather reluctantly, it must be said ) 'entered' into a show competition here in the UK once. The judges had no idea what they were looking at. Perhaps - on reflection - it was silly for me to expect them to?

It makes me wonder whether the theoretical appearance of a very good example of a non North American market car might cause some headscratching and some questions to be asked.

Or maybe it has already happened?

[TomoHawk]

Good idea Chris,

The ZCCA judging document discusses displays briefly (Section II. OUTLINE OF CLASSES) and some other things. The display is supposed to describe what you did to the car. Get yourself a copy of the document and read it through yourself. Otherwise, there's no reason we can't discuss anything in the document here, unoffically.

To help you get a good idea of what the judges are looking for, you should get a copy of the judging sheet, if available, and the ZCCA judging document has examples of the Interior, Exterior, and Engine score sheets. But there's no reason we can't put together a checklist of things to look into yourself.

thx

[gnosez]

Let's take Alan's question first. If he or anyone else showed up with a non-US Z then judging would be based on what was stock (and I assume we are talking stock here since a non-US Z with mods is just another Z with mods) for that car at that point in time. The only problem and it is a real one would be that there might not be a qualified individual(s) to assess the "stockness" of said vehicle.

As to other examples of mods, the list is very long and I can easily come up with more than 50 on my 240 alone. Other than a V-8 transplant, roll-cage, etc., which move you to ultra mod even if you have not made any other modifications, the other biggies are engines and seats. Check the ZCCA Judging Guidelines for more information on what each class allows. Which mods you make is between you, your sense of style, and your wallet.

Does painting the engine block a different color constitute a mod? Yes and no. For cars in stock classes, it would result in 10 points (max deduction). Remember that in stock no mod is a good mod. In any other class it counts as a mod. So whatever you might call it, a deduction is a deduction.

[TomoHawk]

When you refer to "Stockness," or "as it came from the factory," are you saying that you expect the car to have the ORIGINAL parts, like engine, brake calipers, etc.? After so many years, especially for a daily driver, it is highly likely that brake calipers, etc. could have been replaced.

In that case I would expect to see a part that was approved by Nissan as a replacement, or an NOS part, or something like that. In fact, from all the documents on car show judging by AACA, for example, doesn't stress the "correctness" of the replacement (or original/stock) part, but how well it was installed and cared for.

An example: http://www.classiccarinteriors.com/rules.htm

"Each vehicle should be judged for authenticity, workmanship and condition; however, points should not be deducted for subsequent addition of safety features such as:

a. Auxiliary assist devices for handicapped drivers.

These items, if present, must be installed with good workmanship and be in good working order."

Even for muscle cars, where matching numbers on everything gets you a higher value on the auction block, you get a lot of leeway relative to replacement of parts.

They even mentioned this last night during the Barrett-Jackson Classic Cat Auction, that many of the more expensive vehicles have been 'freshened' with NEW parts, paint, hoses, etc.

thx

[Ed]

Now, as to what counts as a modification, that's simple. If it isn't stock for that model and year than anything you replace it with is a mod. For example, you install new wheels and tires, how many mods is that? The nitpicky answer is three (3). Wheels, tires, and lugnuts.

Thanks for the comments gnosez. So I have another example if you don't mind.

This is on a 1973, the carburators have been changed to 71' round tops, domes polished. The bodies have been modified by Ztherapy. Air filter box modified and non original color. Balance tube has been modified and polished. Intake manifolds, modified but original for the 73. Fuel rail from a 72. Two of the carburator links have been chrome plated. All the other links are correctly plated with the yellow zinc. Now would this be eight mods? Or is it really up to the judges discretion?

Thanks,

Ed

Alan, I would love to see a non us market car show up. I bet the judges stand around scratching their head. Maybe they should have a separate class for them.

[gnosez]

Ed - there's nitpicky and then's there's not nitpicky. It would be great if the rules were that detailed but they're not. There is a certain amount of leeway that a judge can exercise in determining the number of mods. First your car would never be entered in stock class so the issue now is how to do the counts. A strict ruling would be at least 8 mods and maybe you missed a few. Skipping ahead, the most important issue is the total number of mods your car has. You may have, or think you have 8 on just the carb assembly but if you go over your whole car you could come up with 15, 25, 30.....? It really only matters if you're close to each classes cut-off limit. The one that bumps you into the next class.

One of the things I introducted at the 2003 ZCCA convention was an owners/entrants meeting to go over the rules with people interested in knowing more about the process. We covered was how judges judge, what they look for and what they don't look at. Read the scoring sheet very carefully and total up the number of parts on your Z that don't recieve a score.

The other thing we did and repeated at the 2004 convention was a pre-show look-over by a panel of judges. People had a window of time to come to our inspection stations the day before the show and have us go over their cars. We made suggestions on what class they should enter and where they needed more work. It has cut down on the number of people who become pissed off at the shows.

Hope this helps.....

[Ed]

Yea, it really does. I'm glad I started to ask and that you guys helped me out. I was certain that my car would be a "Street Modified" entry mainly because I didn't have racing seats. But now, after counting how many mods I do actually have and not wanting to get pissed off on my first show, I decided to go for the "Nissan Modified". It's all fun.

[gnosez]

Ed, if more people were like you then putting on and judging a car show would be more fun for us too. One of my favorite comments to repeat as a mantra is: " Buying in bulk,a trophy costs about $10. each. I'll give you the money if you'll just shut up".......

[26th-Z]

TomoHawk,

Stock means stock. If a part is replaced during the life of the car that is not exactly like the original, then it is not stock. That goes for everything on the car. People spend fortunes and hundreds of hours replicating the exact assembly "as it left the factory". It takes a lot of training and knowledge to discern between model years and types. There are informational resources that will tell you what month a certain part was changed, for instance. It can get that picky. Did you know that original spark plug wires were dated? They can't be replaced!

But we seem to spend too much time belaboring the stock idea. The stock guys know what stock means.

Alan,

I might suspect you would ask how the foreign irrelevant cars might be treated. :laugh: We had such an experience in the Stock 280ZX class at Z-Fest last February. A 1981 280ZXT in silver and black. 20,000 original miles. As I understand, one of three exported. Fortunately, it was clean and there was no real need to pick at it. Won the class and was one of five contenders for “Best of Show”. I don't think there would be head scratching over a Fairlady. More like total delight! Think about this: a "stock" 432R.

gnosez,

Your comment about engine paint points to the need for more clarification in the rules. Exterior body color is open, but engine color is a mod? Lets say I put an L28 in a 240Z in Street Modified. I get penalized with a mod because the engine color isn't correct? WTF?

Let me try to start an argument, please. Wheels and tires are 0 mods.

[TomoHawk]

I suppose Parts replaced through Factury service bulletins, recalls, etc., would get counted as mods, since the 'defective' parts were what was on there from the factory?

I will stick with daily driver. The most reasonable category for a 28 year old car that has seen 100k miles.

thx

[gnosez]

No, replaced OEM parts do not count, unless they are the wrong part. Stop it.

As to wheels, tires = no mods. I'm sorry but what is the exact nature of this question/comment? I will respond but I have no idea what you're trying to say.

[HS30-H]

Alan,

I might suspect you would ask how the foreign irrelevant cars might be treated. :laugh: We had such an experience in the Stock 280ZX class at Z-Fest last February. A 1981 280ZXT in silver and black. 20,000 original miles. As I understand, one of three exported. Fortunately, it was clean and there was no real need to pick at it. Won the class and was one of five contenders for “Best of Show”. I don't think there would be head scratching over a Fairlady. More like total delight! Think about this: a "stock" 432R.

Hi Christopher,

The core point of my 'theoretical' question was what class would such a car be put in? I'm not talking about 'Stock' or 'Modified' here - that would be relatively easy to discern.

For example, a stock unmodified 1969 Fairlady Z-L. I see only '240Z', '260Z' etc etc in the ZCCA judging guidelines - so would the Fairlady have to be entered in the '240Z' class? On the face of it, that would seem to be a ridiculous situation. It would be even more ridiculous if a stock 432 was forced to enter the '240Z' class.

My question still stands. Does - for example - the '240Z' ZCCA class essentially mean 'HLS30-U' only?

Yes, a 432-R would be a guaranteed nightmare. No two built alike

Alan T.