R200 or R180

[Carl Beck]

Hi Ron (everyone)

You may be right, but I don't recall Borg Warner selling a gear type LSD.

For anyone interested... a bit of history about the Torque Sensing Differentials.

Actually, Vernon Gleasman from Cleveland, Ohio, an inventor and mechanical engineer who holds more than 100 patents invented and patented the gear type LSD in 1958. He produced it for a limited time, in limited quantities in his shop.( I have a very long story about why I know this... but the short story is.... Myers Pump in Ashland, Ohio built Hemi Powered, Self propelled Spraying rigs... that operated in the fields.. and they used some of the first torque sensing differentials from Mr. Gleasman...).

Triple-D Inc. also of Cleveland put the Gleasman Torque Sensing differentials into production on a larger scale in the mid 70's AIR. The Gleasman design was then licensed to Gleason Power Works in the early 80's. Gleason renamed it the "Gleason Torsen" (torque sensing).

Gleason was bought out by Zexel around 89 and they still produce the unit for limited applications (but on very high volumes).

Quaife Engineering in England also licensed the design and they produce it for a large number of applications, but usually on smaller volumes of each. Quaife built the units for the Nissan Mid-4 by the way.

Several years ago, we tried to put together a Group Buy within the IZCC.. hoping to have the Gleason/Torsen units produced again for the R200/R180 differentials. Zexel simply could not build small quantities of anything in a cost effective manor, because they are a mass producer.

At the same time, Dr. Alan Robbins (who has the BSR cars) ran into the Quaife Representative at an auto show somewhere.. and wound up working out or supporting a group buy of sorts. Quaife produced and sold a certain number of units to their US distributor(they would not sell them to anyone other than their distributors), the US Distributor in turn laid a certain number of a large order of them off on another Vendor(Dr.Robins Shop).. to sell to the Z Car community...So Quaife now has the torque sensing units available again for the R200/R180's.

Quaife Engineering by the way built the old 5spd. Dog Boxes for the Works Rally Cars back in the early 70's...(fifth gear was over to the left and down... al la the Porsche 914/6 etc).

FWIW,

Carl

Carl Beck

Clearwater, FL USA

http://ZHome.com

72 240Z, L28, 5spd. and Gleason/Torsen 4.11

[HS30-H]

Quaife Engineering by the way built the old 5spd. Dog Boxes for the Works Rally Cars back in the early 70's...(fifth gear was over to the left and down... al la the Porsche 914/6 etc).

No they didn't.

QUAIFE ENGINEERING made sets of dog-engagement straight-cut gears for the 240RS rally cars in the early 1980s. These fitted into the 'dog-leg' shift-pattern direct-drive ( ie - non overdrive ) 5-speed transmissions used on the 240RS, but were not supplied direct to the 'Works' ( ie - in Japan ) and were available either direct from QUAIFE ENGINEERING or from Bill Blydenstein and Tony Pond, who sold the majority of 240RS homologation specials in the UK.

None of this had anything whatsoever to do with the Works 240Z and 260Z rally cars, as it happened over a decade later........

[Carl Beck]

I'm going to ask a dumb question. I know what an LSD is, but what is a "clutch type" LSD? The clutch plates(?) within the LSD as apposed to what?

Hi Vicki (everyone):

There are basically two questions here. "What does and LSD do?" and "How does the LSD do what it does? ;-)

Here is a very simplified way to think about it.

What Does An LSD Do?:

As the name implies.. they are supposed to Limit The Slip, or loss of grip that the tires have on the ground.

All the LSD's sense either the difference in speed, or the difference in torque that can be applied - between the right and left output axles on the differential. As they sense this difference, they attempt to bring the two axles back closer together in rotational speed.

How Does An LSD Do...What It Does?:

The clutch type LSD's can be divided into two types. One, as you mention used a series of clutch friction disks, the other uses a viscous fluid coupling type clutch. Both work via sensing the speed at which the output axles are turning, and temperatures increase in both as the speed climbs). These are both commonly called "speed sensing" type LSD's.

The mechanical type LSD's, use a worn gear drive arrangement. Instead of reacting to speed/temp... the worm gear drive reacts to torque differences between the two output axles. Thus these mechanical LSD's are usually referred to as "Torque Sensing".

OK... So What Is The REAL Difference?:

The speed sensing differentials are limited in their ability to bias torque between the two axles. So in effect they simply slow down the axle that is turning the fastest by reducing the torque applied to it. The axle turning the fastest is usually the one with the least grip on the road.

The torque sensing differentials however, bias the available torque toward the wheel with the most resistance .. that being the wheel with the best traction. The speed sensing LSD's do this to an extent as well, but to a much smaller extent.

While the torque sensing, mechanical units are usually more expensive to build, they are also far more durable. Pay me now or pay me later... Also they usually sell for higher dollars used... because they are far more durable.

Like any technical subject it is actually far more complex than this, but overall this is a logical way of viewing it.

FWIW,

Carl

Carl Beck

Clearwater, FL USA

http://ZHome.com

[Carl Beck]

Alan wrote:

>...snipped...

>None of this had anything whatsoever to do with the Works 240Z and

>260Z rally cars, as it happened over a decade later........

Hello Alan:

thanks... I stand corrected... I should have said late 70's.. six years later...Andy Dawson ran the dog boxes with the Quaife gears in 79 in his Team Datsun Europe cars AIR.. Would you not consider them as "Works" cars? Most books /magazine articles seem to call them that.. I guess because of the direct support from Nissan.

[HS30-H]

Nice backpedalling Carl, but it won't save you.

If you are going to mention anything in relation to cars OTHER than Z cars on this site, you had better make such quite clear. If you are NOT talking about Works 240Z and 260Z rally cars - which is what you implied here:

Quaife Engineering by the way built the old 5spd. Dog Boxes for the Works Rally Cars back in the early 70's

...then I think you should make it clear exactly what cars you are talking about.

Andy Dawson may well have used QUAIFE gearsets in his Team Datsun Europe / 'Dawson Auto Developments' cars - incidentally run from a base not two miles from where I am sitting writing this - but they were NOT Z CARS, and they did not use the same type of transmissions as the Works 240Z / 260Z rally cars. In the period you refer to, he was running 160J Violets.

The cars Dawson was using were built and prepared as rally cars in Japan - so it is correct to call them 'Works' cars - but any modifications that Dawson performed on them himself in the UK were NOT 'Works' modifications. This includes fitting QUAIFE gearsets, or JACK KNIGHT gearsets, Crownwheel / Pinion gears and LSD units. The D.A.D Violets did not even use the same type of transmission as the Works 240Z / 260Z rally cars.

...(fifth gear was over to the left and down... al la the Porsche 914/6 etc).

That will be FIRST gear that is over to the left and down. Fifth is over to the right and down.

[Ron Carter]

I stand corrected, Torsen Gleasen not Borg Warner...Oops.

[Ron Carter]

Alan & Carl,

Can you take your flame inducing diatribe off line please.

You guys can kindly disagree, and discuss this, but this is getting out of hand. I feel like I am reading a script from American Chopper. Please show some restraint and manors.

Thank you.

[HS30-H]

Ron,

Speaking for myself here - I already am using restraint and manners.

I thought this particular exchange was fairly well-natured and pleasantly conducted, actually. Maybe you might be reading a little too much between the lines? :tapemouth

Again speaking only for myself - if I see something that I believe to be incorrect or misleading, and it is on a subject that I feel passionate about as well as having spent some years researching and learning about, then I'm going to pipe up. Works Z rally cars are a good example of this.

How about yourself? If somebody wrote something on classiczcars.com that you thought was incorrect or indeed complete crap - wouldn't you want to correct them? Not to humiliate or embarrass the poster, but to avoid nonsense becoming *fact* because it is repeated often enough. How about if I wrote that the BRE car you replicated originally used a stock 4-speed transmission? You'd correct me wouldn't you? I like to think ( and hope! ) you would.......

The only thing I can suggest - if you really can't stand it any more - is to make a complaint to management. Or how about putting me on your 'ignore' list? You won't have to see any of my posts then.

American Chopper? You've got me there. I have no idea what this is / was. I presume it must be an American TV show?

Regards,

Alan T.

[Mike]

Hi guys... I just wanted to chime in here.

I don't believe the converstions between anyone on this thread got out of hand. I normally draw the line when flaming becomes personal and drives people away from this site. I don't believe this thread got to a point where either Carl or Alan felt personally attacked. ? I could be wrong, but, this thread is a 'heated' discussion about some very valid points about history.

Do continue... I believe it's Carl's round next.... DING, DING....

-- Mike

[240znz]

I'm with Mike on this but I don't consider this to have any heat. It just is two well versed knowledgeable chaps exchanging information for our benefit.

Nothing in it at all. However, isn't LSD illegal?

[COZY Z COLE]

So.... Is this statement correct???? 75-76 280Z'S with auto trans had a R-200 diff and the years before and after had R-180 diff with an auto trans???? If this is true anyone know the reasoning in this?????

LARRY

[Carl Beck]

So.... Is this statement correct???? 75-76 280Z'S with auto trans had a R-200 diff and the years before and after had R-180 diff with an auto trans???? If this is true anyone know the reasoning in this?????

LARRY

Hi Larry:

No the statement is not correct. 75 though 78 280Z's with manual transmissions had the R200. Only 77/78 280Z's with A/T came with the R180.

Why? I don't know. But if I had to guess I'd say that the R180 was strong enough for the average A/T driver, and it saved a bit of weight.

I have seen/read references to the "early" vs "late" R180's (don't know the dates that go with the terms "early" nor "late" in this case).... but as the story goes, the early R180's had two spider gears (one of their weaknesses), where the later R180's had four. Of course adding either the Nissan or Quaife limited slips to the early R180's results in them then having 4 spider gears and thus they are considerably stronger.

I have not personally pulled any "late" R180's out of the 77/78 280Z's nor later 280ZX's so I have not seen any R180's with the four spider gears.

Would love to pin this "story" down if anyone has first hand knowledge.

FWIW,

Carl

Carl Beck

Clearwater, FL USA

http://ZHome.com