Z - 35 Years of Nissan's Sports Car

[Zedrally]

Hey Rick,

Are you actually saying that that German designed the zed!

MOM

[HS30-H]

Hi Rick,

Alan,

I have a book titled "Illustrated Encyclopedia Classic Cars" by Martin Buckley, Anness Publishing Limited, London.

It too gives credit for the design of the Zed to Albrecht Goertz. Other books I have read, by various authors, also make the same claim.

Martin Buckley was wrong. So were the other authors. Its a big self-perpetuating myth started by Goertz himself, and it keeps going because none of these authors ever questions what they read in other books and magazine articles. It has become *history*.......

This subject has surfaced on many, many threads over time, always decrying the claim that Goertz designed the Zed.

If that is incorrect, and you or anyone else can PROVE that it is, why haven't the various authors been contacted through their publishers and given the correct information or, at least, told where to find the correct information, so that future editions of the books could be corrected.

Believe me I have tried this a few times over the years. I have spoken to various journalists from car magazines here in the UK, and its like knocking your head against a brick wall. They keep pointing back to older books and magazine articles, and saying ".......its in this book - so it must be true."

Once these things are in print they might as well be set in stone. Very few publishers or authors seem to want to go back and revise what they have written for later editions of the same book, and 'corrections' in the June issue of a magazine that made mistakes in the May issue might as well be written in snow for all the good they do in the long term.

I've had three of my Zs featured in magazine articles up to now, and when I was 'interviewed' for the articles I tried to get across the point that Goertz had nothing to do with the real process of the 'design' and engineering of these cars. In the May 1999 issue of 'PRACTICAL CLASSICS' magazine, the journalist ( Martin Buckley, funnily enough ) brought up the subject of the dispute about who really designed the Z. Matsuo's name is given as "Chief designer of the 240Z", but Buckley chose to give Goertz space for a personal quote. Here's the quote:

"I may not be the best designer in the world, but I look back at my record and I'm satisfied. I did two classics, the 507 and the 240Z. Name me three other designers who can claim as much."

So you see, the MAIN problem here is Goertz himself. He's a fraud, a liar and a scoundrel. Matsuo and his team haven't had a look in for several reasons - but two of the main factors have been language barriers and the fact that Matsuo quit Nissan on bad terms in 1973.

Carl Beck has done some excellent research and writing on this subject for zhome.com, and when anyone looks at the facts ( clue: Goertz doesn't pay much heed to 'facts' ) it is quite clear what the true situation is. But still we are fighting the myth.

Last 'interview' I did with a journalist on the subject of the Z was with Mick Walsh for 'Classic & Sportscar' magazine here in the UK. He took the point and didn't mention anything about Goertz in the article ( which was good ) but he still misquoted me about another matter. What are you gonna do?

Journalists ( at least in my opinion ) have a duty to carry out proper research and get to the bottom of the story, rather than simply rehash the information already published in previous books and mags. The problem is that most of them don't when it comes to the S30-series Z, because the real *truth* is too much like hard work to dig up and look into. And its in Japanese...........

Alan T.

[1 Bravo 6]

Hey there Mike,

Read my post again mate.

Alan ,

Thanks for the info mate, I had no idea that anyone had ever TRIED to correct the misinformation. Guess I should have known better.

Rick.

[sblake01]

Yeah, Rick, I've read and seen many attempts to correct this. As well as people using the rationale that even if Nissan didn't use Goertz's design, his work influenced their final design. I have written to authors of material that give him credit, and the author usually uses some form of my last sentence to rationalize their failure to do the proper research. So it stays printed that way with no follow up and continues to perpetuate the myth. I don't know. I never thought that the Z resembled any of his work.

[HS30-H]

Well, my copy of the book arrived today. It is bigger than I was expecting, but there's a lot less actual writing in the book than I was expecting.....

And during a quick flick through, a major clanger just popped out at me - as it did for daddz:

Another photo on page 123 needs better clarification. The caption explains the low production numbers for both the Fairlday 432 and 432-R yet, the red car in the picture has later 260Z/280Z taillights, later style sail panel "Z" badges, rear repeater lenses and such.

Page 123 shows two pictures of the same car, and the text discusses the Fairlady 432 and 432-R. But the car shown is clearly not a 432 or 432-R.....

In fact, I believe its the 'LY' Crossflow-engined Fairlady Z owned by Akamatsu san of Japan - probably photographed on one of its trips to a National Convention meeting in the USA ( ? ), and clearly illustrating that it is a later build year than 1973 ( the last year for 432 / 432-R production ) by its rear light arrangement.

Here's what the text on page 123 says:

"Among the ingelligentZia ( sic ), an original Fairlady Z432 or 432-R from the Japanese market ranks among the most desirable classic Zs. Total production was 420, built from 1969-1973, with a 2.0-liter engine that produced 160 horsepower. The LY-designated engine was a high revving motor, with four valves per cylinder and three carburetors. The R model was for racing purposes, and was much lighter with a fiberglass hood, Plexiglass side and rear windows, lightweight bucket seats and other R-dedicated components. These cars are rare and desirable."

Mr Evanow is getting the S20 mixed up with the 'LY'. The 432 and 432-R had the S20 24-valve DOHC, and the 'LY' was essentially a Crossflow conversion for the L24, with just 12 valves and SOHC. They are two completely different engines, and I'm very surprised that this ( and the photos ) slipped through the net. The red car in the photos does not illustrate a 432 or 432-R, and also has non-stock 'Datsun' emblems and rear marker lights.

Did Mr Evanow see Akamatsu san's LY-powered Z at the National Convention and mistake it for a 432, or did the bad information come from elsewhere?

This doesn't bode well........

Alan T.

[26th-Z]

Welcome to my world.

[HS30-H]

Welcome to my world.

Well, I've had a few more dips into the new book over cups of tea. I'm spotting more and more silly mistakes......... :disappoin

26th-Z, I think you have been very positive and very diplomatic in your posts on this thread - so I'm wondering how far to take this. I don't want to criticise the book and the author 'just for the sake of it', but if we spot glaring errors and bad information in the book isn't it better for our 'community' that these things are pointed out and discussed?

Alan T.

[ChrisA]

I don't want to criticise the book and the author 'just for the sake of it', but if we spot glaring errors and bad information in the book isn't it better for our 'community' that these things are pointed out and discussed?

Alan T.

Agreed. But lets just stick to the "bad information" and leave the author out of it. No one but he knows the reason he did what he did.

Regards,

Chris A.

[Ron Carter]

Are you actually saying that that German designed the zed!

Back to the Goertz controversy....

My understanding is that he was involved in a study that ended up as the early Silva, a hard top 2 door sedan that was built on a Datsun roadster chassis.

[bpilati]

Daddz, my original comments (maybe poorly stated) were to say that I thought John Morton's specific statements in the Forward could have been worded differently, better or included the context in which he meant them. To take a production Z out on the track for C Production racing, maybe it was a POS. To drive out of the dealer lot and onto a highway it is not. POS is my words not his. My question is, did he really expect this? This was a $3500 dollar car, so maybe you had to put another $3500 into it to make it a professional race car. At the time it was probably the best sports car in the world for $3500, don't you agree? Do you think the great love for this car stems from ordinary people looking at the car and seeing C Production professional race car right out of the showroom? Of course not. Someone suggested he may have been commenting from a professional racer viewpoint. Well wonderful, but do you think that Bob Sharp and Pete Brock are the only people that will have this book on their shelves? They know more than this book. John Morton was talking to us (you and me), and my "criticism" was aimed there, in that context. Do I think John Morton is stupid or bad or anything, of course not, and I'm certainly not in a position to make such a judgement anyway. In fact, it is because of who he is that I was disappointed with the writing. If most anyone on this board had written it, I would have thought "pffft".

Okay, so I made a booboo and got flamed for questioning The Morton. Sorry, but I think my point is quite plain now.

[HS30-H]

Page 64 is titled "WHAT'S IN A NAME? PART 1", and is a discussion of the origins of the 'Datsun' name.

Unfortunately, it is riddled with mistakes - most of them originating from its quoted source; the book entitled "Essential Datsun Z - 240Z to 280ZX", by Colin Shipway ( Published by Bay View Books in 1994. ISBN 1 870979 51 6 ).

I want to point out some of the mistakes in order that they can be noted by us all here. Maybe it will help to guard against the mis-information being repeated, and gradually becoming *fact*. I'm going to send this information to the publisher too.

Quote:

"An American-educated engineer by the name of Sotaro Hashimoto founded a company called Kwaishinsha in 1912........."

"Kwaishinsha" should be Kaishinsha.

Quote:

"....he named his first vehicle after them by using the first letter of their surnames - Kenjiro Den, Rokuro Aoyama, and Metaro Takeuchi."

"Metaro" should be Meitaro.

Quote:

"....because in Japanese, DAT means "hare" and a hare is generally quick.................... it might be just a coincidence."

There are not really any hares ( as we know them ) in Japan. The closest Japan comes to a hare is a type of wild rabbit called a 'No-Usagi' ( literally: 'Field rabbit' ) and the more likely transliteration of the Roman letters 'DAT' from 'English' into Japanese Kanji ideograms, and then back into English, would be pronounced 'Datto' ( literal meaning: 'as fast as one can', ). 'DAT' does not mean simply 'hare'........ It is much more complicated than that.

Quote:

".....DATSON, now a part of the Tobato Imono Company........"

"Tobato" should be Tobata.

Quote:

"....the holding company's name was Nihon Sagyo......"

"Sagyo" should be Sangyo.

I can't understand why the Colin Shipway book was used as a quoted reference. All of these mistakes are put right in Brian Long's book "Datsun Z - Fairlady to 280Z", ( published by Veloce in 1998. ISBN 1 901295 02 8 ) and the whole subject is covered more accurately. Why use the earlier book as quoted reference when the later book is better?

Am I the only one who finds this strange? The Brian Long book is not even quoted in the list of sources on the 'Credits' page.

Alan T.

[CoastGuardZ]

Okay so I keep seeing this thread on the front page and decided to give it a look. I was leary to even look at it as I thought it was more comparing the 350 to the much more classy Z's that we own. But now that I've read I'd like to say a piece and ask a question.

I don't own the book nor have I read, although I have seen it for sale at a Books-A-Million before but saw the 350 and... well you get the picture.

As far as the forward goes... I don't think it's a matter of Mr. Morton not saying what he felt to be true, but a matter of the author/editor deciding that it's not exactly a favorable comment and then placing it elsewhere in the book and then finding some other fella to "My life was incomplete until the day Nissan released the Z!" After all, when somebody says something semi-unfavorable people go "Wha! Did you hear what he said!??!" for the next few weeks maybe even years... The written word on the otherhand is permanent and esentially last forever. Proof of this? Well i think the Goertz myth is proof. Which brings me to my question...

I agree that Goertz didn't design the Z. Who did? I've yet to see that pop up. Alan, Chris, Steven... I'm sure one or more of y'all knows, do tell.

Also,

What class did the 911 race in? It was also a 2.4L 6cyl during that time. And the 914?!? It seems to me the 912 would've been a better advesary than a 914.

Nate