Z - 35 Years of Nissan's Sports Car

[sblake01]

Hello Alan (everyone):

Due to the holiday here.... I'll be traveling and doing the "family things" today/tomorrow.. So I'll get back with you all after I return...

Carl is doing the family thing as was I. During our family gathering, I left the book on the coffee table and virtually everyone that was here picked it up and scanned through it. It got the usual 'I remember those cars' or 'Uncle Donald had one of those' etc. (actually I remember his-it was a 82 ZX).

[bpilati]

Yeah, my Uncle Buck had one of those. As I remember he kept a shiny chrome-plated hatchet in the back, that he would.......

:bandit:

[Carl Beck]

Hi Guys:

This is - The Short Version (believe it or not)

1. Like Bryan, I wish the Morton comment had been phrased a bit differently, or written in an all together different manor. I fully understood what Mr. Morton was saying and took the comment within the context that it was presented.... but I still wish it had been phrased a bit differently because I knew that both Mr. Brock and Mr. Morton had earlier commented how little was done to the stock Z - to put it on the track.

2. I agree with Chris, it's a book well worth the money, but it has to be taken as a book about the story this author wanted to tell. Quite frankly it's a story that I found very interesting in part. It is not the concise history of the design and development of the Z Car - that we Z Fanatics wanted... but in many cases it is an inside view of at least some of the more current history of the Z.

I was glad to see more coverage given to the early days of the Datsun Competition Dept. As well as the competition coverage in the appendix. Appreciate the information related to the Vintage Z's (a HUGE IDEA!!). I too liked the graphics, the layout and the print quality.

From my perspective - the information about how the 350Z came about - is complete corporate speak. Those of us that lobbied Nissan Motors Ltd. and Nissan Motors USA for the rebirth of the Z, then tracked the progression closely... know it just didn't happen the way it's outlined in the book.

3. I too would like Shin Yoshikawa to do a book on the Z Car, with somewhat the same focus as he did for the Toyota 2000GT; and over the past year we have talked about it. Shin wants to do an article and model of the BRE Baja Z for the delPardo Racing Car Collection. So if things work out...maybe I'll be able to twist his arm a bit more on the subject. We both know that it can't cost $125.00 per copy however!!

4. Speaking of misquotes or things taken out of context - I am sorry that Alan has had the same experience with the "media"; I don't have to explain how easily and how badly your input to a writer of magazine articles or books gets so totally screwed up - when it winds up in print. If it hasn't happened to you, you just can't believe it. I am given to understand that this is all too common in today's media of all kinds. (maybe Goertz didn't say all the things that the media attribute to him).

At least Mr. Evanow has downplayed the Goertz role and goes on to list the people responsible for the design of the 240-Z. Now at least we have a couple of books written in English that contain that information.

5. Mistakes and Misinformation. We could go page by page... quote the mistake or misinformation as we see it.. then supply the corrected information... or "caution comments"... However if we did that, we'd also have to do the same for all the books written, because they all have serious flaws...

Rather - Lets just pick the three most grievous errors, that we would like to see corrected. I completely agree with Alan re the spelling of proper names, the captions not reflecting the car shown and Colin Shipway's book should never be a source/reference related to the 240-Z, However Brian Long's book IS listed on the same page as the "Sources" under the heading of "References".

OK - my top three corrections:

I. Page 26 - Goertz did NOT work on the design team that developed the Porsche 911.. he had nothing to do with it, never "worked for" Porsche. He did submit an unsolicited design to Dr. Porsche and it was outright rejected by Dr. Porsche in 1957 or 58 (it has been reported by Mr. Goertz both dates and as per his autobiography). Ferdinand "Butzi" Porsche did work with Mr. Goertz for some time however (between 57/58) and I'm sure he learned a lot about the process of design and refined his techniques during that period as well. However Porsche Design Project 901 was started in late 59. (I hasten to add that certain people that worked directly with Mr. Goertz, do believe his influence was strongly felt during the design of the 911. I can find nothing to support that opinion and have only Mr. Goertz own words upon which to form mine). Influence is one thing, but the claim so often repeated that Goertz "worked on", or was "responsible for", the design of the 911 is completely false.. but repeated in too many books and magazine articles.

II. Page 17 - The Silvia is NOT an important forerunner to the Z... It was the end of the line for the old Fairlady roadster chassis. The important forerunner to the Z was the Datsun 510. A key to understanding this is found in the book "The Origin Of Competitive Strenght" by Akira Kawahara (1998).

III. Page 26 - Yamaha did not take the Goertz design to Toyota (another Myth started by media conjecture). They showed the Yamaha A550X to Toyota only as an example of their ability to turn drawings into metal reality, with quick turn-around times. The Toyota 2000 GT was a clean slat design, by the design team from Toyota.

There is still much question in my mind - as to who, when or if, the development of the Goertz inspired Nissan 2000GT (as delivered to Nissan)... was continued. It would seem that the Yamaha side of the joint project was evolved into the more fully developed Yamaha A550X. Goertz would lead us to believe he remained in contact with the design team at Yamaha after he left Nissan... but it's very vague. No one to date, has supplied the exact time at which the Yamaha A550X underwent its iterations and come to a final design. This is VERY important to know - if we are to understand what happened...

I showed a picture of the Yamaha A550X to Mr. K this year, and ask him if he know what the car was. He said; "I've never seen it, but it's a nice looking car".

See: <a href=http://zhome.com/History/Truth/A550Xvs240Z.htm TARGET=NEW>http://zhome.com/History/Truth/A550Xvs240Z.htm</a>

The bottom line is - so far the book co-authored by Mr. Matsuo and Mr. Katayama is the most concise account of how the Z Car was created, it is just too short and we'd like to know more about the total corporate environment that nurtured the birth.

FWIW,

Carl B.

Carl Beck

Clearwater, FL USA

http://ZHome.com

[bpilati]

Thanks for those comments, Carl.

[bpilati]

There is no mis-information, mearly comments made by John Morton.

Alan has only asked for Carls' comments. [i'd be interested as well].

MOM

I think I worded my post poorly. The reference to misinformation was regarding another post which used that word. I was trying to kill two birds and actually killed my own post.

[jmortensen]

This will probably come as no surprise to Bryan anyway, but I thought John Morton was dead on with his comments. I also don't think he should have worded them differently or tried to take into consideration the audience. The truth is what it is, and Morton shouldn't have to apologize for it to save anyone's feelings. That's how history gets corrupted.

If you jump in your Z on the weekends and take it for Sunday drives, and that's the extent of your Z experience you will never know how right Morton is. If you take your bone stock Z to an autox or a track day you'll soon find the limitations of the squishy Z suspension. A track day is even more of an eye opener as you'll get a good look at the large number of (slow) cars that pass you.

[Evil Twin]

While that is true, very few of us know what it was like to take a 240Z to the track with its peers all in stock form-a trial that would undoubtely produce different results from showing up at the track today with a bone stock garage queen up against 33 years of suspension development-some of which was due to the success of the Z...

I thought the book was interesting, worth the money and more, even with the opinions, mistakes, and the corporate speak.

[TomoHawk]

Has anybody seen the A&E Z- video lately? I might put it on my Xmas wishlist this year.

[Carl Beck]

Hi Guys:

Earlier there was some comments about SCCA's C-Production Class in 1969/70 etc.

There seems to be some misunderstanding as to what cars were competing in C-Production 68-73. (caused me to go check my memory..)

The Porsche 912's ran in E Production

The Porsche 911's, and in 1970 the 914/6 ran in C- Production (not to be confused with the VW/Porsche 914).

1969 reigning National Champion in C Production was Peter Gregg in his Brumos Porsche 911.

The Triumph TR-6's also ran in C-Production. (Bob Tullius)

The Datsun 2000 Roadsters with the twin carb's ran in C Production.

Just didn't want to leave anyone with the wrong impression - yes the Datsun 240-Z ran the 911's out of the class. Porsche jumped to 2.6 Liter in 74, many said it was done to get out of the same class the 240-Z's were in. ;-)

FWIW,

Carl B.

[TomoHawk]

The last time I went autoX with my 280Z, I was in E stock (ES) class. I'm not sure it's the same class as road racing tho.

[Mr Camouflage]

Flipped through a copy of this book at the bookshop on the weekend.

Noticed the drawing of the CSP311 Silvia, that looked nothing at all like the CSP311 Siliva. Why couldnt they use a photo of the Silvia, or even a drawing that actually looked like a Silvia. The drawing they used looked like a Fiat. Whether it was a concept drawing of the Silvia or not, it looked nothing like the finished car.

Needless to say I wasnt inspired enough to buy the book. I wonder how many other inaccuracys are in the book.

[jmark]

Hi Guys:

This is - The Short Version (believe it or not)

1. Like Bryan, I wish the Morton comment had been phrased a bit differently, or written in an all together different manor. I fully understood what Mr. Morton was saying and took the comment within the context that it was presented.... but I still wish it had been phrased a bit differently because I knew that both Mr. Brock and Mr. Morton had earlier commented how little was done to the stock Z - to put it on the track.

2. I agree with Chris, it's a book well worth the money, but it has to be taken as a book about the story this author wanted to tell. Quite frankly it's a story that I found very interesting in part. It is not the concise history of the design and development of the Z Car - that we Z Fanatics wanted... but in many cases it is an inside view of at least some of the more current history of the Z.

I was glad to see more coverage given to the early days of the Datsun Competition Dept. As well as the competition coverage in the appendix. Appreciate the information related to the Vintage Z's (a HUGE IDEA!!). I too liked the graphics, the layout and the print quality.

From my perspective - the information about how the 350Z came about - is complete corporate speak. Those of us that lobbied Nissan Motors Ltd. and Nissan Motors USA for the rebirth of the Z, then tracked the progression closely... know it just didn't happen the way it's outlined in the book.

3. I too would like Shin Yoshikawa to do a book on the Z Car, with somewhat the same focus as he did for the Toyota 2000GT; and over the past year we have talked about it. Shin wants to do an article and model of the BRE Baja Z for the delPardo Racing Car Collection. So if things work out...maybe I'll be able to twist his arm a bit more on the subject. We both know that it can't cost $125.00 per copy however!!

4. Speaking of misquotes or things taken out of context - I am sorry that Alan has had the same experience with the "media"; I don't have to explain how easily and how badly your input to a writer of magazine articles or books gets so totally screwed up - when it winds up in print. If it hasn't happened to you, you just can't believe it. I am given to understand that this is all too common in today's media of all kinds. (maybe Goertz didn't say all the things that the media attribute to him).

At least Mr. Evanow has downplayed the Goertz role and goes on to list the people responsible for the design of the 240-Z. Now at least we have a couple of books written in English that contain that information.

5. Mistakes and Misinformation. We could go page by page... quote the mistake or misinformation as we see it.. then supply the corrected information... or "caution comments"... However if we did that, we'd also have to do the same for all the books written, because they all have serious flaws...

Rather - Lets just pick the three most grievous errors, that we would like to see corrected. I completely agree with Alan re the spelling of proper names, the captions not reflecting the car shown and Colin Shipway's book should never be a source/reference related to the 240-Z, However Brian Long's book IS listed on the same page as the "Sources" under the heading of "References".

OK - my top three corrections:

I. Page 26 - Goertz did NOT work on the design team that developed the Porsche 911.. he had nothing to do with it, never "worked for" Porsche. He did submit an unsolicited design to Dr. Porsche and it was outright rejected by Dr. Porsche in 1957 or 58 (it has been reported by Mr. Goertz both dates and as per his autobiography). Ferdinand "Butzi" Porsche did work with Mr. Goertz for some time however (between 57/58) and I'm sure he learned a lot about the process of design and refined his techniques during that period as well. However Porsche Design Project 901 was started in late 59. (I hasten to add that certain people that worked directly with Mr. Goertz, do believe his influence was strongly felt during the design of the 911. I can find nothing to support that opinion and have only Mr. Goertz own words upon which to form mine). Influence is one thing, but the claim so often repeated that Goertz "worked on", or was "responsible for", the design of the 911 is completely false.. but repeated in too many books and magazine articles.

II. Page 17 - The Silvia is NOT an important forerunner to the Z... It was the end of the line for the old Fairlady roadster chassis. The important forerunner to the Z was the Datsun 510. A key to understanding this is found in the book "The Origin Of Competitive Strenght" by Akira Kawahara (1998).

III. Page 26 - Yamaha did not take the Goertz design to Toyota (another Myth started by media conjecture). They showed the Yamaha A550X to Toyota only as an example of their ability to turn drawings into metal reality, with quick turn-around times. The Toyota 2000 GT was a clean slat design, by the design team from Toyota.

There is still much question in my mind - as to who, when or if, the development of the Goertz inspired Nissan 2000GT (as delivered to Nissan)... was continued. It would seem that the Yamaha side of the joint project was evolved into the more fully developed Yamaha A550X. Goertz would lead us to believe he remained in contact with the design team at Yamaha after he left Nissan... but it's very vague. No one to date, has supplied the exact time at which the Yamaha A550X underwent its iterations and come to a final design. This is VERY important to know - if we are to understand what happened...

I showed a picture of the Yamaha A550X to Mr. K this year, and ask him if he know what the car was. He said; "I've never seen it, but it's a nice looking car".

See: <a href=http://zhome.com/History/Truth/A550Xvs240Z.htm TARGET=NEW>http://zhome.com/History/Truth/A550Xvs240Z.htm</a>

The bottom line is - so far the book co-authored by Mr. Matsuo and Mr. Katayama is the most concise account of how the Z Car was created, it is just too short and we'd like to know more about the total corporate environment that nurtured the birth.

FWIW,

Carl B.

Carl Beck

Clearwater, FL USA

http://ZHome.com

Thanks Carl for the comments. I have the DelPardo Racing Car Collection version of the BRE 240Z and it is very well done. FWIW if Shin Yoshikawa does a Z book with the content and accuracy the Z car deserves I'd pay $125 for it. The definitive book is still to be written IMHO.