Z - 35 Years of Nissan's Sports Car

[bpilati]

This will probably come as no surprise to Bryan anyway, but I thought John Morton was dead on with his comments. I also don't think he should have worded them differently or tried to take into consideration the audience. The truth is what it is, and Morton shouldn't have to apologize for it to save anyone's feelings. That's how history gets corrupted.

If you jump in your Z on the weekends and take it for Sunday drives, and that's the extent of your Z experience you will never know how right Morton is. If you take your bone stock Z to an autox or a track day you'll soon find the limitations of the squishy Z suspension. A track day is even more of an eye opener as you'll get a good look at the large number of (slow) cars that pass you.

While it maybe true that slow cars will pass you, look at what was popular in 1970. How many at that time had the luxury of history to drive their design studio. All the stock cars coming out today with turbos and other racing mods from the factory. If we built a 240Z today, no doubt it would be get those "slow" cars caught in its tire treads as it grinds them to dust, eh? Look at the 350Z, that's a modern day Z. How many "slow" cars will be passing it?

You make some sense, but you're also talking apples and oranges. John Morton didn't make his determination after going on a 2005 track day. He said it handled like an American car, that was what I took exception to. IMHO (I repeat, IMHO) that is a moronic statement. Certainly John Morton has driven American cars, especially those of the late 60's and early 70's. Come on, an American car??? A 240Z isn't that sloppy.

Now, can we end this thread already?

[HS30-H]

Carl,

Your lengthy post deserves ( needs ) some 'return of serve', and I'm afraid I am going to need to be Devil's Advocate in some respects:

I agree with Chris, it's a book well worth the money, but it has to be taken as a book about the story this author wanted to tell.

It cost me £24.95 ( that's approaching $50 US I think ) and I feel cheated. I pre-ordered it on the basis of its ambitious title, and would not have paid for it had I realised it was going to be such an intellectual and historical lightweight ( despite its physical size ).

I'm sorry, but taking the title "Z - 35 Years Of Nissan's Sports Car" into consideration, I don't think I got anything like that.........

It is not the concise history of the design and development of the Z Car - that we Z Fanatics wanted...

Well, you can say that again.

At least Mr. Evanow has downplayed the Goertz role and goes on to list the people responsible for the design of the 240-Z. Now at least we have a couple of books written in English that contain that information.

It is good that he 'downplayed' the role that Goertz played, but nobody ever goes far enough in my opinion. Goertz needs to be thoroughly discredited for his caddish, opportunist attitude and his active fostering of myth. If Goertz was an honest and truthful man, half of this nonsense would not be 'out there' in the first place.

I didn't spot anything other than a brief mention of Matsuo's name, and his name does not figure in the single page ( ! ) 'Index' at the back of the book. Matsuo didn't 'design' the car on his own ( just like Goertz couldn't have, but nobody ever points out.... ) so where were the names of the likes of Yoshida, Chiba, Shitara, Uemura, Miyate, Benitani, Kamahara, Oiwa, Tamura et al? I don't understand why nobody ever seems to wonder who engineered the first-generation cars, rather than who is supposed to have simply styled them.........

Mistakes and Misinformation. We could go page by page... quote the mistake or misinformation as we see it.. then supply the corrected information... or "caution comments"... However if we did that, we'd also have to do the same for all the books written, because they all have serious flaws...

Sure they do. But the LATEST, most recent book to be published has the LEAST excuse for including so many glaring errors, and to be so blatant in simply COPYING the errors that were seen in its credited 'sources'. Colin Shipway's execrable spelling mistakes should NOT be copied verbatim in a book that gets published more than ten years later..........

I completely agree with Alan re the spelling of proper names, the captions not reflecting the car shown and Colin Shipway's book should never be a source/reference related to the 240-Z,

Amen to that, but where you say "240-Z" I say "S30-series Z".

....However Brian Long's book IS listed on the same page as the "Sources" under the heading of "References".

Hold on. Brian Long's second book on the Z, 'Nissan 300ZX, 350Z - The Z-Car Story' is quoted in the 'Credits' ( Bibliography? ) section at the back of the Evanow book - NOT Brian's earlier book on the first-gen cars.

If Evanow had paid attention to Brian's first Z tome, he wouldn't have had the embarrassment of simply copying Colin Shipway's mistakes.

But for me ( and yes, this is my personal view ) I cannot understand why the same HUGE mistake is being made over and over again. What mistake is that? This one:

The S30 / S31, S130, Z31, Z32 & Z33 series Z cars should be seen, discussed and critiqued as full families of Z cars, rather than '240Z', '260Z', '280Z ~ '350Z' etc etc. This - to me - is the single most fundamental mistake that can be made when thinking about 'our' cars ( and especially the particular series that this very web forum focuses on ).

I can understand that a book will tend to focus on the cars known to its target audience - but to consciously avoid the brothers and sisters of a whole series of cars seems downright perverse to me. When the unmentioned siblings were such an important part of the story, and indeed their very existence implicitly affected so much of the story, it seems absolute madness to all-but-ignore them. To make such glaring and hopelessly inept mistakes about them when they are mentioned just cannot be excused.

Sorry, but I think this book is a LONG way short of living up to its ambitious title. I regret having bought it. Maybe it should be subtitled ".........The American Viewpoint."?

Alan T.

[HS30-H]

This will probably come as no surprise to Bryan anyway, but I thought John Morton was dead on with his comments. I also don't think he should have worded them differently or tried to take into consideration the audience. The truth is what it is, and Morton shouldn't have to apologize for it to save anyone's feelings. That's how history gets corrupted...........

....He said it handled like an American car, that was what I took exception to. IMHO (I repeat, IMHO) that is a moronic statement. Certainly John Morton has driven American cars, especially those of the late 60's and early 70's. Come on, an American car??? A 240Z isn't that sloppy.

Maybe Morton would have been more impressed had he not jumped into the dumbed-down and softened-up HLS30U?

Where's that "An American Car, Made In Japan" quote now then?

Now, can we end this thread already?

Its going to need to die of 'natural causes' rather than being shot for coming back to haunt its creator.

Alan T.

[jmortensen]

Maybe Morton would have been more impressed had he not jumped into the dumbed-down and softened-up HLS30U?

Where's that "An American Car, Made In Japan" quote now then?

EXACTLY!!! The US version is definitely the watered down boulevard cruiser.

Its going to need to die of 'natural causes' rather than being shot for coming back to haunt its creator.

Yeah. What's with starting threads then hoping that they die off?

[Ron Carter]

Bryan,

I have read your posts here and on John Morton's website, and I think you are taking what John was quoted saying, out of context. I know John personally and have heard him speak at length regarding the Z and how it performed in the 70's...I was on hand for the taping of the show on the Discovery Channel about a year ago where John Morton and Trevor Harris were interviewed regarding the 240Z (of which eight hours of unbelieveable history was turned into a 45 second sound bite)...tragedy..but that is a whole other issue....

I think that John and BRE team were very proud of what they did with the 240Z. I think that there was some concern at first, but this is a story of overcoming adversity and the creation of a legend in the "USA" (thats for you Alan ).

Ron

[bpilati]

Maybe Morton would have been more impressed had he not jumped into the dumbed-down and softened-up HLS30U?

Where's that "An American Car, Made In Japan" quote now then?

Its going to need to die of 'natural causes' rather than being shot for coming back to haunt its creator.

Alan T.

Hmmm, do you have issues with letting this go. Apparently you have opinions about this book; that maybe you would have been scared to put out on your own, had I not stuck my neck out? Let me look for YOUR thread on this book, give me a few minutes.

Okay back, yes apparently my thread is the only one about this book. Now maybe you could lay off the sniping comments, Alan? Haunting ; what a classy guy.

[bpilati]

Bryan,

I have read your posts here and on John Morton's website, and I think you are taking what John was quoted saying, out of context. I know John personally and have heard him speak at length regarding the Z and how it performed in the 70's...I was on hand for the taping of the show on the Discovery Channel about a year ago where John Morton and Trevor Harris were interviewed regarding the 240Z (of which eight hours of unbelieveable history was turned into a 45 second sound bite)...tragedy..but that is a whole other issue....

I think that John and BRE team were very proud of what they did with the 240Z. I think that there was some concern at first, but this is a story of overcoming adversity and the creation of a legend in the "USA" (thats for you Alan ).

Ron

I appreciate your comments and your personal experience. However, I don't think I took his statements out of context, I think he made them out of context. Frankly, he should have stated the context more clearly. If I was completely new to Z I would have thought that Mr. K had handed him a POS to try and figure out how to race. Like, "Mr. Brock here's your "Dodge Dart" to try and fix up for racing, sorry if it handles like a sow and squats on acceleration, but what can you expect from me and Nissan? I suppose you'll have to do a radiator cap overhaul to get it into racing condition." If I took him out of context, then he obviously wasn't himself the day he wrote those statements about test driving the Z. I think you are quite aware of the significance of a Z book forward written by someone like John Morton, aren't you? It's not something trivial. Anyway, what else is there to say, words mean things.

[26th-Z]

Appreciate the information related to the Vintage Z's (a HUGE IDEA!!). I too liked the graphics, the layout and the print quality.

Carl,

I don't understand what you mean by "huge idea".

[HS30-H]

Hmmm, do you have issues with letting this go. Apparently you have opinions about this book; that maybe you would have been scared to put out on your own, had I not stuck my neck out? Let me look for YOUR thread on this book, give me a few minutes.

Okay back, yes apparently my thread is the only one about this book. Now maybe you could lay off the sniping comments, Alan? Haunting ; what a classy guy.

Classy? Aw shucks .

If you took the time to read back through the thread that you created, you might notice that you started it before I had received my pre-ordered copy. For me to start a parallel thread would seem to be fairly pointless considering you made such a good job on this one.......

And ME "scared" to put out my own opinion on something? Ha ha ha ha! That'll be the day.

I think this is a great thread ( you have created a beautiful monster ) so I don't know why you want it closed. I think we are all learning something here. We might even come to a collective agreement on some points ( shock, horror..... ).

...Anyway, what else is there to say, words mean things.

:classic: :classic: :classic:

[Evil Twin]

I hope someone uses this thread to correct some of the wrongs that have been presented, and as someone mentioned before, the membership of this club are probably the ones to straignten out the mess we have paid for in books under the guise of correct history.

I still feel that the book was a welcome addition to my Z library(got it through Amazon), and hopefully one day will be yet another example to show the misconceptions that made it into print before several of you guys(and a few others) put it straight, and more importantly, complete.

[bpilati]

I think many here aren't ready to question the sacred. Maybe they feel unworthy, I don't know. When celebrities have spoken, they must not be questioned. I'm a 240Z owner, and I take big exception to someone (rock star or not) telling me that my car handles like an American land yacht just because it didn't come off the boat handling like a million dollar Le Mans racer.

I guess $3500 US didn't buy what it should have.

[Ron Carter]

Bryan,

I guess we can agree to disagree. First you say that you appreciate my knowledge and comments and then you discount them!?

I will pick up my copy of this book at MSA this next week and read the forward or introduction, and comment further.

Still, I feel that you are being unfair to John, I know he is very proud of the racing Datsuns he drove in the late 60's, 70's and 80's. I have spent time at his house in his garage, and he has a photo of every race car he has ever driven...I spoke to John last weekend at a Vintage race in Palm Springs and he spent quite a bit of time with us Datsun guys. Regardless what has been printed, the guy cares....

Obviously, you feel that what was quoted or written by John was a poor observation. On the other hand, you were not there....

Yes, words mean things....

R