Z - 35 Years of Nissan's Sports Car

[bpilati]

Bryan,

I guess we can agree to disagree. First you say that you appreciate my knowledge and comments and then you discount them!?

I will pick up my copy of this book at MSA this next week and read the forward or introduction, and comment further.

Still, I feel that you are being unfair to John, I know he is very proud of the racing Datsuns he drove in the late 60's, 70's and 80's. I have spent time at his house in his garage, and he has a photo of every race car he has ever driven...I spoke to John last weekend at a Vintage race in Palm Springs and he spent quite a bit of time with us Datsun guys. Regardless what has been printed, the guy cares....

Obviously, you feel that what was quoted or written by John was a poor observation. On the other hand, you were not there....

Yes, words mean things....

R

Okay, then why write the forward that way. If proud then speak proud. John is a nice guy, okay I'll take your word for it, I'm sure he is. He's a personal friend of yours. Did he just screw up then? Maybe that's it, and he didn't really mean it to come across that way. I'm just telling it as I see it. "I took the 240Z for a test drive, and it handled like an American car compared to a Indy race car." But that's not what he said.

"My relationship with the car is not just special;.....

[is blasted to hell by this]....

....As it turned out, the car was a Mustang and I was not one of its drivers. When the car appeared, I remember thinking this thing doesn't look like a race car...........when Pete Brock was given a 240Z to look at......I had the same thought. This is a good-looking car, but doesn't look like a race car.

After a brief drive, the evaluation became direr. The car was very soft and had a lot of squat under acceleration. The handling felt more like that of an American car, not a potential race-winning sports car. This wasn't going to be so easy.

Today the car [350Z] is better than ever and now -- in completely stock form -- actually feels like a sports car that can win races."

Is that what they're doing, winning those same races with stock 350Z's? I'm sure someone here knows. Well it really doesn't matter since they won those races with 240Z's and made lots of money. The 240Z didn't even feel like it had potential; amazing. He speaks of the resurrection of the Z being divine. Well I'm sorry, but the divine part happened in the Fall of 1969. You may think the reengineering of an Infinity as divine, but I don't.

[26th-Z]

Bryan,

Go out and drive a 1970 HLS30U 240Z. It is soft, it squats, the steering is vague at high speed, and the wheels rumble. There is no acceptance of the sacred going on. That's how it was and the BRE championship car addressed every one of those issues in it's "stock" racing trim. There are plenty of us here who question the "sacred", but I don't seem to think we have an issue with what John wrote. I know John and his forward reads to me just like I was talking to him.

Chris

[bpilati]

Sure Chris, if I ever see a 240Z, I'll be sure to get in it and drive it. It will be a new experience for me. His forward reads just like you were talking to him; and this proves what? That you know him, and that proves what? That he really did write that forward, and that was never the question.

Did your average American car have four wheel independent suspension with Macpherson struts in the front and Chapman struts in the rear? Did your average American car have dual SU's? Did you average American car come with radial tires? Did you average American car weigh 2300 pounds? Did your average American car have rack and pinion steering? Did you average American car have an aluminum head to lower the CG? Did you average American car have an OHC engiine? I'm old enough to know that answers. I also had German friends and rode in German cars of the time, I guess they rode like American cars too. I drove my dad's 1963 Oldsmobile Dynamic 88 when I was in high school. It had a big V8 and weighed 4000 pounds, and it was an average American car. My dad also purchased new a 1971 Datsun 510. Let me tell you something Chris, that 510 drove circles around that Olds on country roads. That 510 didn't drive like an American car at all. If anyone had told me that my 510 drove like an American car I would told them they're full of $^!#. In fact they use to say that the 510 was based on the BMW 1600 because the two had so much in common, but I guess that was untrue. It must have been some American car. I own a 1979 Toyota Corona; now that car drives like an American car. I'd say my 510 drove more like a European car.

Now Mr. K must have been a total moron to compete against other European cars in the US with his American riding 240Z. For a guy that so got it right, he sure had a screwed concept didn't he? And for a man who loved motorsports he was really off base, bringing in this American riding 240Z. Think about it. It's a miracle it ever worked, just pure dumb luck. :nervous: You know I can just picture Matsuo taking a little spin in his prototype saying wow, this rides just like an Oldsmobile....WE'VE DONE IT! HURRAY!!!! Now if Goertz had stayed on the project, that wouldn't have happened. It would have driven like a BMW. That's why Nissan dumped him, they wanted a sports car that drove like an Olds. And it's a damn good thing too. Little did Nissan know that 35 years later someone would write in a book that their car drove like an American car, and not a European car.

[Ron Carter]

Bryan,

I suggest that you pick up a copy of Road and Track November 1970. I see them on ebay all the time for $8 to $10 bucks. On page 30 John is quoted "that John has found the 240Z to be a far different car to drive that the Datsun Roadsters he has driven in the past: much more power, for one thing, but the handling is also considerably different because of the more sophisticated suspension, the wider track, the wider tires and greater bulk. It is very solid and smooth, it sticks better and because of its greater potential is that much more challenging to drive at it's limit."

If you re read your quote from the book I hear John saying that the 350Z is a better handling car out of the box, it is a lesson of experience. Z cars have improved....A new 350Z can be raced effectively with little modification....It's a complement to what Nissan has been able to do through development of the Z. Not a shot at the 240Z.

Oh and I used to have a BMW 1600 and my friends who drove 510's could drive circles around my BMW...Oh and the BMW 507 handles like a pig, great design, but it doesn't handle well.

ugh...

R

[jmortensen]

The difference is that a quote in a magazine IS taking into account the readership, and the sponsorship for that matter. You really expect Morton to say anything negative about a Z in Car and Driver in 1970???

This argument has spilled into another thread that it shouldn't have, but I'll restate here that I think the basic problem is that Bryan has no frame of reference to judge the statements made by John Morton. The statement that a stock Z is soft and squats is so true I'm baffled that anyone would try to argue otherwise. Morton's comments were about what it takes to make a "race-winning sports car", not about how the car drives on the highway. His comments in Car and Driver were about a road car, and were probably (IMO undoubtedly) colored by his sponsorship from Datsun.

[Ron Carter]

jmortensen,

Point made and taken. I guess that my point was that even back 30 years ago John was quoted saying that there were significant differences between the Roadsters and the 240Z.

I think your second paragragh sums this whole argument up. Well put.

R

[bpilati]

The difference is that a quote in a magazine IS taking into account the readership, and the sponsorship for that matter. You really expect Morton to say anything negative about a Z in Car and Driver in 1970???

This argument has spilled into another thread that it shouldn't have, but I'll restate here that I think the basic problem is that Bryan has no frame of reference to judge the statements made by John Morton. The statement that a stock Z is soft and squats is so true I'm baffled that anyone would try to argue otherwise. Morton's comments were about what it takes to make a "race-winning sports car", not about how the car drives on the highway. His comments in Car and Driver were about a road car, and were probably (IMO undoubtedly) colored by his sponsorship from Datsun.

So he lied? For money's sake? Carry on, I'm done with this; now you're just spinning off into the universe. Let's go back to 1970 now. I made statements and I gave the CONTEXT in which I meant them. Either understand or not, obviously you'd rather fabricate your own context to suit your purposes. You two can go ....... now. That book wasn't written only for race car drivers you bozo, don't tell me what my frame of reference should be. Good bye! :mad:

[Mike]

You guys are too much.... Please get this thread back on topic and discuss this seriously. I can't be called in for every disagreement. This is actually a good discussion and it shouldn't get personal...

M

[1 Bravo 6]

Hmmmm,

This thread has been VEEERY INTERRRRESTING.

However, since it tends to be a little cardogmanish, I think it's run it's course, what's needed to be said has been said.

I'm gone.

Rick.

:devious: :devious:

[Ron Carter]

Agreed......

[Mr Camouflage]

I'm very hesitant at resurecting this thread. Better to let sleeping dogs lie me thinks,

but.....

.....there is a particular magazine article that details what was done to the BRE 240Z to turn it from the description given by John Morton (quoted by Brian way back on post #1), to a racing car.

You can find it here (thanks TexasZ) http://www.pape.ws/allan_and_rosanne/Z-Car_Stuff/Magazine Articles/Datsun 240Z Goes Racing/

It's from Road & Track October 1970, and really puts into perspective what had to be done to turn the car into a competetive race car.

[jmark]

I'm very hesitant at resurecting this thread. Better to let sleeping dogs lie me thinks,

but.....

.....there is a particular magazine article that details what was done to the BRE 240Z to turn it from the description given by John Morton (quoted by Brian way back on post #1), to a racing car.

You can find it here (thanks TexasZ) http://www.pape.ws/allan_and_rosanne/Z-Car_Stuff/Magazine Articles/Datsun 240Z Goes Racing/

It's from Road & Track October 1970, and really puts into perspective what had to be done to turn the car into a competetive race car.

I got an error using the link. I was able to find it on your site and get it to work.