Eat your heart out......

[Zrush]

A friend owns a 78 Black Pearl with something like 650 miles.. Unlike the car on e-bay however, it still has it's original tires, wheels etc.

FWIW,

Carl

Carl B.

Is that the lady in Pinellas County Carl? Somebody was telling Scott about a woman who had an all original BPE in St Pete or somethng.

I think a low milage car is fine but IMO if the miles were put on the car in the first year of it's life and then it sat for 25+ years then that's no good. If the low miles were put on the car within the past few decades I'd feel a little bit better about how the car would actully run. Not just starting it up either, the car would need to be put through it's paces.

It's nice to see a cherry 280Z for once!!!

Vicky

[kenz240z]

It sure is one very sharp looking Z car! Some of those pics might be helpful for 280Z owners looking to freshen up or restore their cars to original condition.

[Carl Beck]

Hi Gang, interesting car at any rate..

Why would anyone want a 77 280Z with 5K miles and who would be willing to pay $25?

Collectors... it's just that simple. Some people enjoy collecting the most beautiful and most rare objects, that most other people can only dream about owning. "Collector Quality Automobiles" have been all the rage among many Collectors almost from the beginning of the Automobile.

Anyone that loves the Z Cars should hold a high regard for the people that are now adding them to their Collections. Why?... Because for decades to come, they are the people that will have the cars we all look to - for answers to our questions of originality, and to take our children and grandchildren to see. These cars will be the most perfect original examples that can be found... One rung lower on the scale will be perfectly "restored" examples... but they will always be one rung lower and always sell for a bit less (even if it costs more to produce them!). These are the Z Cars that will move from private collections to public museum's..

Vicki - Yes, I hooked a couple of friends together and the 78 Black Pearl is now in a Collection in Atlanta. It traded hands well North of the $30K she wanted for it a few years ago.

Who else would pay $25K for a 77 280Z with a real 5K miles?.... Almost anyone that has spent $50K trying to get a Classic, Collectible or Special Interest Car in anything near the condition of this "original" as it is presented to be. If it's clean, take it to any National Z Car Convention and it's a Gold Medallion Winner... Take it to any of the National Level Concours or Historic Car Show .. and it's a class winner. Take it anywhere and it will draw a crowd. Car Shows are actual FUN for many people. They get together with like minded people, swap war stories, ogle each others prize possessions... and yes in most cases they actually have examples of the same model that they like to drive. For them it isn't an either / or situation...

But let's not kind ourselves either... Just because a #1 Collector Quality example sells for $25K or $40K.. that doesn't mean our #3 condition car will bring even half that amount... True #1 cars are very very very rare.. Usually traded in private sales, you almost never see them at auction nor on a Dealers Lot... I think we are starting to see some on e-bay, it's a great source of free adverting even if it doesn't sell there. Also keep in mind that if a serious Collector wants a specific car - they will gladly pay a very high premium just to get a reluctant owner to let it go... A willing seller on e-bay might expect quite a bit less.... and the seller of a standard 75-77 280Z won't get the interest of the serious Collectors that a limited production Black Pearl either.

As someone else mentioned - if a buyer really wanted a 280Z in that color, and if they had to money to spend - it wouldn't be out of the question to see it bring $25K today if two or more of them showed up for the auction.

FWIW,

Carl B.

Carl Beck

Clearwater,FL USA

http://ZHome.com

[sblake01]

Carl, do you feel that the car in question falls into the category you describe? A true #1, etc.?

[Zrush]

Carl, do you feel that the car in question falls into the category you describe? A true #1, etc.?

Stephen, a true #1 car, according to automobile collectors, is a perfect vehicle that is NOT driven and resides in a museum or private collection. #2 cars are near examples but are driven (some trailered, depending on saftey issues) to AACA shows, concours events and have (some) recieved their first "Junior" or "Senior" award. Cars achieving Senior Level are retired from competition and are allowed to be on display only, free of charge.

There is a book that you can purchase that lists all types of cars and what it takes to be a #1, #2, #3, #4 and it might even go to #5. It's mainly a quide as to the value of a certain cars. This is how many reserves are determined at high-end auction houses.

FWIW

Vicky

[Carl Beck]

Carl, do you feel that the car in question falls into the category you describe? A true #1, etc.?

Hi Stephen (everyone):

It would take a very serious and time consuming effort to fully "Judge" the car in question. But looking at the ad I'd guess it would fall more in the category #2 range. (not having the original tires/wheels alone would most likely knock it out of the #1 category).

FYI - the Old Cars Price Guide by Kruse, defines #1 thru #6 categories as follows:

#1 EXCELLENT - Restored to current maxium professional standards of quality

in every area, or perfect original with components operating and appearing

as new. A 95+ point show car that is not driven.

In national show judging a car in #1 conditon is likely to win top honors

in it's class. In a sense it has ceased to be an automobile and has become

an object of art. It is transported to shows in an enclosed trailer, and,

when not being shown it is stored in a climate controlled facilty. It is

not driven. There are very few #1 cars.

#2 FINE: - Well-restored, or a combination of superior restoration and

excellent original. Also an extreanely well maintained original showing

very miminal wear.

Except for the very closest of inspection a #2 vehicle may appear as a #1.

The #2 vehicle will take the top award in many judged shows, except when

squared off aginist a #1 example in its own class. It may also be driven

800 - 1,000 miles each year to shows, on tours, and simply for pleasure.

#3 - Very Good: Completely operable original or "older restoration" showing

wear. Also, a good amateur restoration, all presentable and servicable

inside and out. Plus combinations of well-done restoration and good

operable components; or a partially restored car with all parts necessary

to complete it and/or valuable NOS parts.

This is a 20footer - that is, from 20 feet away it may look perfect. But

as we approach it, we begin to notice that the paint may be getting a

little thin in spots from frequent washing and polishing. Looking inside

we might detect some wear on the drivers seat, foot pedals, and carpet.

The chrome trim while still quite presentable, may have lost the sharp

mirror like reflective quality it had when new. All systems and equipment

on the car are in good operating order. In general, most of the vehicles

seen at car shows are #3's.....

#4 Good - A driveable vehicle needing no or only minor work to be

functional. Also, a deteriorated restoration or a very poor amateur

restoration. All components may need restoration to be excellent, the car

is mostly usable "as is".

This is a driver - It may be in the process of restoration or its owner may

have big plans, but even from 20 feet away, there is no doubt that it needs

a lot of help..

#5 Restorable - Needs complete restoration of body, chassis, and interior.

May or may not be running, but isn't weathered, wrecked, and/or stripped to

the point of being useful only for parts.

This car needs everything. It may not be operable, but it si essentially

all there and has only minor surface rust, if any rust at all. While

presenting a real challenge to the restorer, it won;t have him doing a lot

of chasing for missing parts.

#6 Parts Car - May or may not be running, but is weathered, wrecked, and/or

stripped to the point of being useful primarily for parts.

FWIW,

Carl B.

[sblake01]

Thanks, Carl and Vicky. I'm really not a typical classic car guy. I'd rather look at them than own them. My Z is maybe a low 3 or a high 4. The 810 is a low 4 or maybe even a high 5. I just think that the eBay car we're discussing was a little short of the sellers praise. It is, however, as fine an example of a 280Z that I've ever seen.

[bpilati]

Not from what I have seen. But if all that you intend to do is get validation that a vehicle is actually worth "something", you can set a unreachable reserve and then take the highest non-winning bid as the vehicle's "true market value".

At least I presume that is the game that some people are playing on Ebay.

From the reserve price that some things on Ebay have, I have to presume that there is some kind of insurance value justification going on.

If you truly have a vehicle that is worth a considerable amount of money you list it in one of the collector's papers, or take it to a high end auction.

But of course the bidders there mostly know what they are doing... not a good place for scammers.

I think there are only two ways to get a true value for a car, 1) professional appraisal, and 2) sell the car and what you get is what it's worth.

[bpilati]

I think a parts car (#6) class should be added to shows. You could have the best parts cars that can only be transported in an enclosed trailer (so parts don't fall on the road) brought to shows for judging by qualified amateurs.

[240 in OZ]

Carl/All

Interesting that this publication that you reference, Old Cars Price Guide by Kruse, mentions restored cars in the #1 class. You and may others (me included) have said in the past that an original car should be valued higher over a fully restored car of equal condition.

Maybe there is some kind of split in the #1 class; ie #1 original car/#1 restored car.

Interesting.

Joseph

[richard1]

Brian, I could not not agree more with you about what is the real worth of a car coming from an updated professionnal appraisal every three years.

For those who can afford to buy gems like this one (as I have been myself but a lot cheaper with 40K back in 2000), IT IS A MUST to have a certified appraisal because it will never be replaceable and if you are involved in a collision as I have been three months ago, it is an old car by today standard.

It is the only way to protect your investment and enjoy it.

But after 30 years with only 5K miles what could be expected of the mechanical components and reliability just for the pleasure to enjoy such a treasure without some major investment?

It is less than 200 miles a year to exercise the ponies of this beast.

How a sleeping beauty like this one could be safe to stretch its muscles after so much time without major care and tuning?

[Carl Beck]

Hi Richard1 (everyone)

I can only relate my experience... My son had a 72 Olds Cutlass Supreme. Restored and professionally appraised at the time at $8,500.00. He of course had lot more money in it than that, not to mention a couple years work.

A "Reverend" ran a Red Light and took the nose off my son's Cutlass. The Reverend was insured with GIECO.. he was sighted/ticked for the Red Light... went to Court and was found guilty.

GIECO's "Adjustor" offered my son $1,500.00 to total the Cutlass out. My son submitted the Appraisal (at the time less than two months old), plus about ten pages of "For Sale" ad's that reflected the average market value of restored Cutlass Supremes in Florida at the time. On average they were "asking" in the $6,500.00 to $8,500.00 range.

All this meant "NOTHING" to the Adjustor - he said, take the offer or sue us. He knew that the limits in the Small Claims Court here in Florida were $5K. He knew that if there was no "personal injury" involved, my son could not recover "Legal Fee's" in addition to actual damages; but would have to pay his Attorney out of the money awarded if he prevailed in Court... which would leave about $2K at the most.

All this dragged on for about six months.. and the Adjustor finally offered $2,500.00 to settle the claim - and my son gave up and took it. Letters to the State Insurance Commissioner did no good in this case, letters from my son's Attorney went in the trash at the Claims Adjustor's desk.

The "Only" way to protect yourself - when you own a higher value Classic, Collectible or Special Interest Automobile is to have it fully insured on your own "Agreed Value" Insurance Policy.

Yes - if one buys a 30 year old car with 5K miles... one can expect to put a few $K into it, if one wants to take it out and drive it on longer trips. On top of that, it all depends on how well cared for the car was - while being stored. Many cars in good Collections - are very well cared for.. started, ran, fresh gas etc etc - and just as many are just left to "sit" unattended. The one's that have been left to sit will have "issues" that will need to be resolved.. and that usually costs both time and dollars.

Properly awaking one of these Sleeping Beauties, that has been left to just sit completely idle has to be done carefully and correctly - if you want to avoid problems.

FWIW,

Carl B.

Carl Beck

Clearwater, FL USA

http://ZHome.com