Barrett Jackson Auction, Scottsdale

[jmortensen]

Ron's just hoping that at some point he can expect some return on his investment, aren't you Ron. ;-)

I personally want all of the Z's to stay cheap. The cheaper it is the more of them I can buy for parts.

As a side note I would swear I saw an old CP car go thru BJ maybe 5 years ago and sell for ~17K.

Also at this point I don't think you can argue too successfully about Japanese cars being a good collector car in general. A 1970 Mustang is a big bloated whale of a car but there is a hell of a lot more demand for it than there is for a Z, regardless of which is the better car.

[kurtwwalters]

I don't think anybody can predict what Zs will go for in the future. Who would have thought that that Futureliner bus would go for 4.1M? One thing that is a little different with the Z cars is that there was only 1 engine available and that the only numbered part is the engine block. Dataplates could easily be faked to force an engine match. Also, there is no way to track factory options since they were not put on a plate anywhere. Old paperwork is the only way this could be verified - and not many people would have that. My 2cents....

[montoya_fan01]

Not sure I agree that the Hagerty Newsletter agrees with the statements made in this thread. Perhaps a re-read of the newsletter and the thread are in order?

Yes, prices are going up for Z's but they are still worth FAR, FAR less than the Detriot Muscle Cars that crossed the stage at B-J for huge $$$$. We're talking apples and coconuts in making a comparison between 240Z's and a$1.1M '70 Chevelle. Obviously 240Z's don't command the same interest as the Chevelle currently, or there would have been a Z selling in the same price range. (Note: There wasn't even a Z sold a B-J this year, AFAIK)

My original post said that it will be many years before a 240Z commands $75K. I stand by that statement. Will a Z ever make it to $75K (or $1.1M), yeah at some point in time, but I'd be surprised if $75K happened before the end of the decade. MY OPINION.

Ron posted that:

"I can tell you that today it would cost you $35K to $40K, so a $50K Z car is not out of the realm of reality at some point in the near future.

Well, that "may" be true, (I would have said "realm of possibility") but it is still 30% below the figure that I mentioned.

I invite y'all to PM me with the details of the first $75K 240Z to change hands.

FWIW, I think Bill Ramsey has one for $75.00

[montoya_fan01]

I don't think anybody can predict what Zs will go for in the future. Who would have thought that that Futureliner bus would go for 4.1M? One thing that is a little different with the Z cars is that there was only 1 engine available and that the only numbered part is the engine block. Dataplates could easily be faked to force an engine match. Also, there is no way to track factory options since they were not put on a plate anywhere. Old paperwork is the only way this could be verified - and not many people would have that. My 2cents....

Kurt, I'm sure no one thought the Futureliner would bring $4M (there may have been a bid retraction, or misunderstanding as they later reported the sale price at $4M, down from $4.1M). The announcers said the seller hoped to get $600K. Bet he was SHOCKED.

The report I heard was that there are only 3 operable Futureliners remaining of the original 12 made in 1950 by GM. Pretty impressive, and rare bird IMO. My Dad and Uncle say that they remember a visit by one of them to the town that they grew up in.

I love watching B-J Scottsdale, I think I'm going to attend next year (spectating only, of course).

Gets my blood pumping for classic automobiles and the coming racing season as well.

[Walter Moore]

While I would dearly LOVE for my 240Z to become as valuable as those 60s era muscle cars, I am not sure that they ever will.

I read in the Wall Street Journal's collectable section that the value of any collectable is mostly based on the number of weathy older people who either have fond memories of the item from their youth, or who dearly wanted the collectable when they were younger but couldn't afford it at the time.

Most of the 60's muscle cars were not that expensive in relative terms, but they fell apart quickly and mostly ended up in the junk yard. Thus many people owned one, and have fond memories of them, but couldn't hang on to them for purely financial reasons.

Also, the insurance industry quickly recognized that young men in horribly overpowered cars (mostly with poor brakes...) were a recipe for disaster. Moreover disasters that THEY (the insurance companies) had to pay for. So for most of the baby boomers in the U.S. the really desirable versions (read big engines...) were not available for insurance reasons.

I actually know a gentleman who had that happen to him. While he was in college he saved up enough money to buy a brand new 1969 Dodge Charger. He wanted the 440 HO motor, but couldn't get insurance on anything larger than the 383.

These factors, aided by the short usable life span of the 60's muscle cars made them unobtainable objects of desire for untold thousands of men in that generation.

By comparison the Z cars, with their significantly lower price, and only 143 cubic inch displacement were viewed by most of the U.S. population (and the insurance industry) as essentially an economy car.

A 1971 car is still 35 years old. The same generation that is out there trying to buy up all of the remaining Z28s are the people who would be trying to buy the Datsuns, if they wanted one.

30 years ago the "hot" collectable cars were the Ford Model A and its peers. Today the value of those cars is in decline.

All of which changes nothing about the cars themselves. Buy them and restore them for the pleasure of DRIVING them! If they happen to appreciate in value so be it. If not so what?

[280z1975]

Hi Gang:

snip ...

67-69 Camero's...725,942 (1969 alone: Z-28's = 19,014, V8's = 178,087 and 6cyl. =65,008) ... and we see what the early Camero's are bringing now....

snip ...

Having just just joined the ranks of Z ownership I have to say that I am sorta happy at the costs of the old Z cars because I can afford one!

About ten years ago when I was looking at getting my first car I was a HUGE first generation Camero fan. (I still am, but have been coverted to the Z-side :lick: ). Back then you could find nice first gen. Cameros for about 3-6k's, well done up and partialy restored for just under 10k. Now, they are at least 23k to 28k range. These are not fully restored, but more very well done up.

Now take the Z (which I also wanted to buy from my Uncle 10 years ago, but he wouldn't sell. Just had to wait ten years for him to give me it :lick: ). My 75' will be worth about 5k to maybe 6k grand when done (I am not doing a full retore, but a very good one and not keeping everything stock) and I am going to put in 3,500+ into the car in material alone! I got the car for free, so that was a big plus to a profit, but I am not restoring mine for a profit.

Still, what other high-preformance sports car can you find out there for the prices the Z's are going and be as much fun to drive! It's all about perspective. Most of us here would like to have our cars be worth a ton of money, but frankly, if they were, a lot of us wouldn't be able to afford a Z. I know I wouldn't.

It's a buyers market for Z's now (and will be for a long time I think), but for the moment, it's one of the best new or used bang-for-your-buck sports car out there. Many of of the people here have two (and some lucky bastards got three of them). What other kick arse car could you get three for under 25k!

As far as the nostalgia. Most everyone I have talked to has at least one cool memory that involves a Z car. So in another 10 years, maybe our babies will be worth more. Either way the prices go, I'm keeping my Z for a while. Hell, when I move to Europe in three years I'm putting her on a ship and she's coming with me.

[Ron Carter]

I think that some of you may have missed my point. Early Datsun Z cars in their best original condition will command a decent price. The TREND is a bump in price like what the 60's muscle cars are currently enjoying. Maybe not to the SAME degree, but more so than what is indicated above. I agree that it might be some time before we see a Z top $75k and Montoya I will gladly let you know about it. Again, this will be for the high end perfect low mileage car OR for a race car with well documented history. I can think of several people who would consider paying $100K for Gerry Mason's original BRE Z....and I am sure that Carl Beck would not take less than $50K for his restored BRE off road Z.

I guess this is a double edge sword. I would like the value of these cars to go up some, and I think that they will. I have a significant investment in several rare racing Datsuns and would like my investment to increase in value. But not so much that I feel that they should be locked away in a museum, I prefer to race my cars and I enjoy doing so....

I think I would much prefer to see a racing Z or 510 at the Monterey Historics that would be a much better validation. Not necessarily a larger price tag.

[theianmonster]

As of now, I doubt we'll 510 go for a substantial amount of money. They're worth nearly $10k less than the 240Z, only because the 240's are more collectable and desirable. I just find it odd, considering 510's are harder to find, and REALLY hard to get parts for.

[John Coffey]

I read in the Wall Street Journal's collectable section that the value of any collectable is mostly based on the number of weathy older people who either have fond memories of the item from their youth, or who dearly wanted the collectable when they were younger but couldn't afford it at the time.

And I'm thinking that all the 20 something kids who really enjoy Hondas, Nissans, Acuras, Toyotas, etc. will be these same folks who will be at BJ 20 years from now bidding on Japanese collectables.

[jmortensen]

20 years ago those kids and young adults were driving/racing the 10 to 15 year old 510s. Why aren't they coming up on the block and commanding high prices now that those kids are 35-50? I don't think that there CAN'T be a Japanese collector car market, but its going to take more than people getting old to make it happen. The Japanese marques just don't get respect from the collector market. Maybe with more time as the old purist collectors die off...

[v12horse]

And I'm thinking that all the 20 something kids who really enjoy Hondas, Nissans, Acuras, Toyotas, etc. will be these same folks who will be at BJ 20 years from now bidding on Japanese collectables.

Most of the kids (and adults) that I see driving these cars don't know/respect the older Japanese cars. I think a lot of them are speed and "for show" freaks and that is it. They buy what is trendy and new. When I was at the D1 championship, people were cheering when the cars would go out of control or almost crash. Are those people that would respect a classic Japanese car like ours? Maybe they would later buy a classic Integra Type R with orig paint..., but not a 71 240z. This is a stereotype I know, but it seems pretty much the same across the globe, except for Japan. Just look at the tuner magazines here. Very few ever have a classic Japanese car in them.

I agree with what a lot of people have said here, and I think original cars will go up in value because as time goes on, there are fewer and fewer original Datsuns, Toyotas, and Honda's.

Personally, I hope the Z increases in value, but I hope it doesn't become a car that is so unattainable that we enthusiasts cann't afford them. One of the things so great about the Z/510/roadster etc. is that they are attainable. Most of the enthusiasts/owners of these cars do not have deep pockets so I don't know how they are going to increase in value that soon. The majority of the people that like these cars and will continue to purchase these cars are the same people that like them today.

I am a sucker for original cars, and if and when I do buy another Z it does not have to be perfect, but mostly original. I like a bit of patina. Most US buyers of all classic cars in general must have everything perfect. What is wrong with a little patina here and there? For one, it is original, and two, it shows the life that the car had in the past. I guess this is too deep for most. Cars are just cars to them. In Japan and Europe, originality is preserved as much as possible, even when it is not perfect. I am not sure what the difference between a #1 and a #2 car is, as they are probably very close in condition. I understand that a car that is original and unrestored is worth more than a restored car, but as time goes on a #2 car is going to be a #1. It is nice to have original paint and other hard to have original parts of the car, but as time goes on these cars are either going to be put in museums or collections to preserve their originality or they are going to be refreshed to keep them on the road. What is better? Museum or street car? I would like to see more on the road and the prestine original examples in the museum for reference.

This is all opinion and please if I offended anyone, I did not mean to.

-Ben

[Zrush]

Most original, unrestored cars are NOT perfect. They have factory paint drips, sloppy orange peel and uneven gaps. This is how the cars came from the dealer. Many cars today that are restored to original are actually over-restored. Our bodyshop just did a 65(?) convertible Barracuda back to original and the owner wanted these little "factory flaws". A judge with any sense of originality will know that this is how the car should appear.

Attend an AACA show and see if you see a perfect car. I really don't think there is any such thing.

Vicky