Total Seal Piston Rings

[Pir0San]

Hey all, I've been doing some research into Total Seal Piston Rings, and I was curious if anyone has had any experiences with them, and where to buy them at (other than straight from Total Seal themselves).

[ZSaint]

We used them on our 280 CP race engines. They are very fragile rings. We broke a couple of them during installation when we first started using them. We had a torque plate built for the L6 engine to make certain the bores were perfectly round with the head torqued onto the block. These rings would get about 2-3% leakage. We made some serious hp when we started using the torque plate and these rings. I think they were 1 mm (.040) thickness. We ran 12.5:1 cr and ran .630 lift on our cams. We wanted to keep all of those cc's going out the header vs. going into the block!

[Pir0San]

All I want to do is build a motor that is going to run reliably, and won't have the same oil burning problem the motor I have now is, as well as being a quick overall car. Are they really worth it? As for the torque plate, is that something I can aquire myself, or would I have to have the machine shop install my pistons and rings instead?

[ZSaint]

I use only the best in my 240. I built it to last a lifetime or two. I cannot think of anything that will give you better bang for your buck then spending the dollars to use Total Seal Rings. I do not know if anyone in your area has a torque plate. I had one built in the 70's and it really paid off. I was gone for nearly 20 years and when I came back I went out to the engine/machine shop and the new owners still had and used my torque plate. That is why I had them build my engine. I would still use these rings even if you cannot find a plate. They will work better than a normal ring. If you do not bore it, the bores will be true from the factory.

Are you certain your oil burning is not valve stem seals? That is what normally goes bad in these old engines. I have the original 240 engine with 86K on it and it needs new seals. The rings do not show much wear at all. FYI

[Pir0San]

The oil burning is in fact from worn oil control rings, the head I have on there now has less than 600 miles on it, and has brand new everything (seals, guides, valves, cam, rocker arms, lash pads, etc.) so I do not believe it to be the seals. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if it were seals, the Z would stop smoking after the engine is warmed up, due to oil lubricating the seals, right? My Z smokes no matter what, especially on acceleration, and burns oil like a person drinks water. If I drive it slow and baby it (like a grandma) it will burn a quart of oil in about 100 miles, but if I drive it spirited/put it through its paces (mind you, this isn't revving straight to redline, shift, rev to redline, this is take off, accerlerate to 4000/5000, shift, etc) and it'll eat a quart of oil in less than 100 miles. The block I have now was given to me by another Z fanatic, who said the block would smoke for him too, but he said that it was indeed the valve seals. The block burned oil on three heads that I had on it, so I believe it to be the rings.

So, let me get this correct (and excuse my ignorance) I do not need a flex plate unless I am boring the cylinders. So, since I just want to hone the cylinders for new rings, a flexplate is not necessary.

Last question, and this is an opinion one: I know you said that the Total Seal rings are fragile, and you had broke a few on install, so would it be a smarter idea for the machine shop to install the rings, or could I do it, provided I use the lubricant that Total Seal sells in addition to their rings.

Man, I wish I had a ton of cash, then I wouldn't have to ask very many questions...but at least I'm learning!

[SteveK]

I opted for total seal rings on my build up last year, after serious research I went for the top ring as gapless and the 2nd ring normal --- I was adviced to do this as it has been known that if the gapless is used on the second then even the smallest of leakage past the 1st ring can be stopped dead on the second and then the pressure build up can unseat the top ring causing issues.

1 year down the line -- we are still making 250 HP at the fly with a text book torque and HP curve

[clutchdust]

PirOsan, a tourqueplate is a plate made to bolt in place of the head when machinework is done. the purpose is to simulate the same pressure and distortion (torque) a block sees when the head is bolted on. the shape of the cylinder bores will change, even if it is minutely, once the head is bolted down. because of this, a torqueplate should be used anytime machinework is performed on the cylinder bores, regardless of whether it is boring or honing and regardless of what type of rings are used. this helps make sure the cylinders are as round as they can be once the engine is put together, not just as it sits on an engine stand. this is a very common proceedure for domestic engines and most shops that give a damn wouldn't perform machinework without it. problem will simply be finding a machine shop that has a torqueplate for the datsun engine.

having the machine work done properly will help reduce or eliminate your oil control problems regardless of what style/brand of rings you decide to use.

[Pir0San]

clutchdust, thanks for the info on the torque plate. I'll call the machine shop tomorrow and ask if they have one!

[Pir0San]

oh, I was reading through my "How to rebuild your Nissan & Datsun OHC Engine" book today, and the author said that it was not completely necessary to use a torque plate, as long as the main caps are installed for rigidity...so where's that leave me?

[clutchdust]

you still want to have it machined with a torqueplate if you can find a shop with one. main caps will distort the lower bore but will do nothing for the upper bore. i would think it might actually be worse if only half of the engine is torqued while the other half is static, but i could be wrong.

if you can't find a shop that has one, then you can't find a shop that has one and that's all there is to it. it's just one step to building an engine with the most attention to detail. sometimes money is a factor, sometimes equipment or availability is a factor.

[ZSaint]

Subject: Re: Reply to post 'Total Seal Piston Rings'

I feel you are correct in allowing the shop to install the bottom end. I have assembled many engines and decided to have my 3.0 assembled by the engine shop. They were very careful and the engine works just fine. They have the correct tools to make certain they do not break the rings. (They do it daily!)

You are also correct in not worrying about the torque plate. If you do not take a lot in your "honing" your bores will remain round. It sounds like your bottom end needs to be freshened. No valve seals problem to resolve!

[Pir0San]

Thanks ZSaint. I'm not sure if I want them to install the bottom end (since I wanted to do it myself, but I'll see how much more it'll cost to do, and I'll weigh the costs vs. the benefits.

When you said that you had broken the Total Seal rings upon install, was that from not using the ring compressor fully, or was that from not using the ring seperator correctly, etc?