Styling.....Porsche Cayman, 350Z & the 240Z...your thoughts?

[Mr Camouflage]

Wow. Porsches just keep getting uglier.

[SJGREEN71]

I saw this in the March 2006 edition of Road & Track magazine, and thought "now here is the ultimate hybrid Z."

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=3326

Designed by Peter Brock, of BRE Datsun racing fame. The long hood, the headlight buckets... it all makes for a very attractive retro appearance based on the Shelby Datona Coupe. Reaching 60 mph in 3.5 seconds, and 11.8 seconds for the quarter mile makes me like it even more. :classic:

[Alfadog]

Wow. Porsches just keep getting uglier.

It looks good from about ONE angle. That was not it.

I agree with Will. The Tiburon even has similar circumstances. Pity it wasn't QUITE good enough to make such an impact as the Z did.

Also agree with the DB9 statement. That could easily be changed a bit and would look fantastic as a "retro" designed 240Z. Just have to cheapen it up a little.....

Anyway, the 350Z has shown excellent sales and proved that Nissault is actually doing a pretty good job of things. Improving sales from "dismal" was the easy part ..... let's see how they go in the long term.

In the mean time, I will continue to have wet dreams over the new Miura.

[jmark]

Here is a drawing of the DB9. Lot's of 240Z there....

[VaGuS510]

The proportions must say S30, long hood with a hatchback

The engine must be a strait six hidden under that long hood(I know, dream on)

There need to be three gauge pods on the top center of the dash

It needs to loose some weight (keep under 3000lbs.)

It must have the best technology but within a budget, meaning Miata price range.

The rest of the design should be up to the designer. I don't know if you all noticed or not, but the S30 has some awkward looking lines and shapes. Personally i think the DB9 would be great with a Z badge on it, but it wouldn't be very retro. Only the profile would be simular, but that is it. Everything else would be completely unique. The coke bottle shape isn't Z at all. The rear hatch shape isn't anything like any z ever was. I am not saying I would like a DB9 Z, I just mean that the DB9 is as much Z as the 350Z, but it would be a step in the right direction.

[LEB]

Well,

For what it's worth there was an attempt to get more retro with the car that is now the 350Z. There was even a show car that represented one attempt. It was built on the 240SX platform.

Design is always a risk. No matter what is done I believe that the amount of risk that is taken needs to be appreciated. The most respected designs today didn't just copy what everybody else was doing. That's the safe way but will almost never make for a classic. Of course manufactures aren't looking to produce classics they are looking for sales. Sales for the 350 are OK.

The S30 was a breakthrough design for it's time. I suspect that it wasn't done in Japan but I don't know for sure. The folks at the Design Center in Atsugi never wanted to admit that it wasn't done in Japan. I suspect it was done in Italy and then engineered in Japan. If anybody knows for sure I'd like to know.

I'm getting too wordy here. I'll stop.

Larry

[Go240Zags]

Well,

The S30 was a breakthrough design for it's time. I suspect that it wasn't done in Japan but I don't know for sure. The folks at the Design Center in Atsugi never wanted to admit that it wasn't done in Japan. I suspect it was done in Italy and then engineered in Japan. If anybody knows for sure I'd like to know.

I'm getting too wordy here. I'll stop.

Larry

Larry, I think I'd consider running for cover!

[Carl Beck]

Some of my thoughts...

1. The 350-Z is styled, or more correctly "shaped" the way it is - because it is a shortened Infiniti G35. Just as AMC chopped 8 inches out of the Javelin - to create the AM-X. The Nissan 350-Z came about as a cost containment... not the "Clean Slate" design that Mr. Hanawa promised at the New York Out Show in 2000. Nissan simply could not, or was not willing, to develop a new chassis unique to the Z Car - once Carlos took over the helm at Nissan.

2. Prior to the 350-Z, although all previous generations of Z's shared many common components with the sedans in the line - the Z's all had their own unique chassis/floorpans. That is not the case with the 350-Z.

3. Let's keep a distinct difference in our minds between "Retro Styling" which is one art form of it's own and "Classic Sports Car Lines". Retro doesn't mean Classic and Classic doesn't meant Retro.

4. I agree that Austin, Jag and even Ferrari have returned in recent years to more "Classic" body lines. Typically longer hoods, smoothly flowing feminine body lines and tight rounded rear ends.

5. To the traditional Porsche fans - a Porsche was an air cooled, boxer type, rear engine car. The 928, 124, 944 failed in the market because they were not the cars that people, that wanted a Porsche, wanted in the first place. The 914 failed because it was market in Europe as a VW...and the PCA refused to recognize it as a Porsche, until the Factory threatened to withdraw support of the PCA... The Boxter made it big because it was the modern 550...

Most manufacturers have tried "badge engineering" and it might work to a limited extent for a limited time... Likewise some retro designs sell well for a period.... But in the long run it is logical and visual evolution that keeps a Marque alive. The Prosche, the Corvette, the big Ferrari's...

IMHO the new Mustang is not so much "retro" as it is a return to what should have evolved if Ford didn't get off track in the first place... I think most of us Classic Z Car Fans were hoping that Nissan would do the same... give us a modern 240-Z.... one with the Classic Lines we all love...

The Lexas at Post #2 looks a lot like the Caddy Sports Car.. to me... (X-LR) That was a bold new design but still falling within the Classic Lines... even if maybe a little edgy... The Chrysler Cross Fire was also a Bold Design.. but needed about twice the HP offered.

The Solstice and Saturn Sky .. could have been hits, if only GM had set up to mass produce them, and given them the HP advantage over their competition...

Nissan needs to get Peter Brock to design the next generation Z for US....

FWIW,

Carl B.

[Carl Beck]

Hi Larry:

Please see: <a href=http://zhome.com/History/DesignEvolution/DesignEvolutionZ.htm TARGET=NEW> Design Evolution of the Z</a>

[LEB]

I'm fearless (or foolish). I spent 20 years with Nissan Design and have had personal conversations with many of the Designers that were around then. Design and the design process have always been very interesting to me. I know the books have done a good job of covering this but just look at what was being put on the road by Nissan at that time. The 510 was the only real exception and it wasn't a strong design statement like the Z. It was done by Kazumi Yotsumoto our first president. He chose to change the subject when pressed about the 240.

Over the years there have been many design projects farmed out to small design studios in Italy to only then disappear as the project evolved in unexpected ways. There is a lot of Italian Design going to China these days that you'll probably not hear about. That which is in print doesn't always tell the whole story.

I'm not trying to rewrite history just thinking about it.

Sorry to stir the pot but it sometimes stimulates. I'm hoping that somebody can contribute to this in a positive way.

Everybody knows what they like and they are surely entitled to their opinions.

Larry

[LEB]

Thanks Carl,

I've read the history a number of times and I'm sure history is going to remain as is.

My problem is that I've seen history "designed" too many times in the studio. This has gone from blatant fabrication to just not remembering to tell the whole story to not actually knowing the whole story.

It's kind of like the big name designers taking credit for everything that their studio does. What are all those other folks doing there anyway?

Maybe the Z was done completely in house while they were also doing cars like the B210 right along side. It's possible. Any thing's possible. I wouldn't have said anything about outside help if I'd been asked.

Credit still belongs to Nissan for having the insight to produce it.

Would you put the 300ZX in the classic category? I suspect it will eventually get there? I wish I had one.

Larry

[hls30.com]

Carl,

I agree with you, Nissan may have had a bold design and grand scheeme for the 350, but Carlos pulled in the reigns. The 240z was a gamble that paid off BIG! Carlos will never benefit or lose from a gamble. It is the complete lack of "under promise and over deliver" (the ads over promised an early Z relationship and delivered nothing) , and "I would rather you beg for forgiveness than ask for permission" that is pervading Nissan now. The Demming outlook is gone, now you have people working at jobs, not careers.

LEB, I understand what you mean about making design history fit the "facts", the real question is whose version of the facts are true, and how to establish truth in a situation that was taking place almost 40 years ago and more than 5,500 miles away.

Will