Styling.....Porsche Cayman, 350Z & the 240Z...your thoughts?

[Carl Beck]

I'm fearless (or foolish). I spent 20 years with Nissan Design and have had personal conversations with many of the Designers that were around then.

Hi Larry:

It is a shame that Mr. Matsuo left Nissan about 13 years before that. If you read the article I pointed you to - do you recognize any of the rest of the team?

Design and the design process have always been very interesting to me. I know the books have done a good job of covering this but just look at what was being put on the road by Nissan at that time.

Humm..."but".... that sounds like you really don't think the books have done a good job of covering this. If so, I couldn't agree more. I too have an interest in the process of Design, be it applied to Styling or Engineering. I too have over 25 years experience working in a Design Engineering environment, and I too always found the story as laid out in the many books about the Z Car ... not really adding up... they all seemed to be missing important facts, dates, documentation etc. All seemed to require a leap of faith to get from the roadsters to the Z Car in any rational fashion.

That is until I read the book that Mr. K and Mr. Matsuo co-authored. That finally answered a lot questions, contained a lot of missing documentation and laid out the process in a time line that was understandable.

The 510 was the only real exception and it wasn't a strong design statement like the Z. It was done by Kazumi Yotsumoto our first president. He chose to change the subject when pressed about the 240.

Who is "our", what company would that be? Are you referring to one of the Nissan Design Centers?

As far as I can find - Teruo Uchino was the lead designer for the PL510/Bluebird. Mr. Teruo Uchino studied Industrial Design at Tokyo University then worked under Shiozo Sato (designed the Toyota S600 and Nissan Fairlady) and gained entrance to Nissan.

Over the years there have been many design projects farmed out to small design studios in Italy to only then disappear as the project evolved in unexpected ways.

Agree - prior to Nissan really establishing a strong in-house design capability, they did for the most part either produce the designs of other companies and/or hire outside designers. Nissan really started to build a solid in-house design department around 62/63... then they picked up some very talented people with the merger of Prince Motors into Nissan in 1966.

Looking at the history of Nissan - you really see Mr. Ayukawa and a small group of his friends as being "Capitalists" and/or "Industrialists". Their main goal seems to have been to build a modern industrial base in Japan between 1910 and 1938. Ayukawa's foundation was the Foundry he built and his connections with Japan's leading bankers and businessmen.

For that reason, Ayukawa seemed more interested in building production and manufacturing capabilities - than he was interested in designing a unique automobile. In his words, "why re-invent the wheel?".

There is a lot of Italian Design going to China these days that you'll probably not hear about. That which is in print doesn't always tell the whole story.

That is certainly true.. but if you find enough in print, from a variety of different sources, it can help to give you a better over-all understanding of what most likely happened.

I'd love to hear more about your years with Nissan Design - would that have been here in the US?

FWIW,

Carl B.

Carl Beck

Clearwater, FL USA

http://ZHome.com

[Carl Beck]

Thanks Carl,

I've read the history a number of times and I'm sure history is going to remain as is.

Hi Larry:

Which "history" have you read a number of times?

I believe that since 1995 at least, there has been a great effort to change or refute the early reports related to the design and development of the Datsun 240-Z. So I'll hope that early reported history doesn't stay the same...

My problem is that I've seen history "designed" too many times in the studio. This has gone from blatant fabrication to just not remembering to tell the whole story to not actually knowing the whole story.

It's kind of like the big name designers taking credit for everything that their studio does. What are all those other folks doing there anyway?

I hope that the article I pointed you too - does attempt to give credit to the other people in the Studio.

Maybe the Z was done completely in house while they were also doing cars like the B210 right along side. It's possible. Any thing's possible.

As I recall, the B210 didn't come out until four years after the Z... circa 1974? That would have put it in the design cycle closer to 1970 when the final design of the Z had been done for a couple years. Also, according to several different reports - Nissan kept the various Design Studio's separate from one another. (Sports Cars vs Sedans).

As you and I both know - the personnel assigned to any design team - determine to the largest extent, the success of failure of the project. Having Mr. Matsuo and his team in place, at the right time and gaining the right backing - was a one in a million shot for any automotive manufacturer. Chance or Destiny.. who knows.. but it happens only once in a while.

I wouldn't have said anything about outside help if I'd been asked. Credit still belongs to Nissan for having the insight to produce it.

Would you put the 300ZX in the classic category? I suspect it will eventually get there? I wish I had one.

Larry

Hummm.... it's still a little bit to early to tell. The 90 300ZX Twin Turbo was most certainly a Milestone Car - and it more or less set the stage for the Japanese Super Cars in the Sports Car market. The styling also appears to me at least to be close to timeess. (if you had never seen one before - it would look perfectly modern today.. some 16 years later.

How strikingly different the Datsun 240-Z was from the Nissan 300ZX TT. Where the Datsun 240-Z was designed and built with a specific Market and Customer in mind, and the design requirements were derived from that Market and Customer... The Nissan 300ZX TT was intended to be a showcase for Nissan Motors Ltd. advancements in automotive design and technology. (as stated by Nissan Motors with the introduction of the 90 300ZX).

In a few more years, we'll know if the 90+ 300ZX makes it to the "Classic" status or not. Right now however they can be a bargain..

FWIW,

Carl B.

[LEB]

Wow Carl,

I'm not the historian that you are.

I'm mostly interested in just trying to understand why design/styling evolves in the way it does. I know history has a lot to do with it, especially when it all adds up to an explanation that is easily understood.

I was in the studios at GM Styling when the 240 arrived. Of course GM management could have cared less about what an upstart Japanese company was doing in markets that they thought they would always control. There was considerable talk at the studio level about the Z. The most significant thing that was noted was that you could have a really cool sports car for very little money. By this I also mean that it didn't follow the design formula of the Triumphs, MG's of earlier times. It more nearly followed the design formulas of much more expensive cars of earlier times.

By late 79 or early 80 I was in San Diego setting up a Design Studio (NDI) with Hirshberg, Semple and Flowers. I was doing the nuts and bolts part, in charge of modelmaking. Our first assignment was actually to supplement a project going on in Japan, with 1/4 scale Z models. That first effort never really affected much but we did do some facelifts on the 280's later as the car became more of a grand touring vehicle or some might like to say more exotic. The definition of a sports car has changed over the years.

The 300ZX was designed by a young Japanese designer named Yamasta. We competed in that project and lost (something that we weren't used to having happen). The original design that he did was so completely changed after it was chosen that it was unrecognizable. However it was beautiful, as you've pointed out.

Anyway I'm getting off topic. I did meet some of the people that were involved with the 60's projects and the process that was in evidence in 1980 was still 4 studios. It was in Surumi (sp) and we couldn't get our driver to enter the facility because he was driving a Toyota, not a Nissan.

Nissan had hired a guy named Fred Hoadley, retired from Ford, to consult with them about setting up design studios. I never met him but I saw a lot of his input on paper. Typically the Designers, Modelers and Engineers were all in separate areas (they still are today). We (NDI) put everybody in the same space. A very different concept. Sense I retired in 2000 I've seen the space begin to be divided in the San Diego Studio (now NDA), much more like the Nissan Japan model. Goshen / Nakamura have almost absolute control now.

I’m sure that there are very few folks still around that could shed any light on the very beginnings of the 240 Z. In as much as I was able to sit in on many meetings involving what happened in design, maybe there are others who also were privy to information that might be helpful. I do know that we would sometimes compete in projects that were also assigned to design companies outside of Nissan. Who knows somebody may still be out there.

Larry

[HS30-H]

LEB,

Your posts on this thread caused me to furrow my brow and scratch my head. No disprespect intended, but are you just thinking out loud here or something? You seem to have been involved with automotive design, and with Nissan themselves, but seem to be out of touch with what is nowadays - pretty much - common knowledge amongst most serious S30-series Z history fans.

The S30 was a breakthrough design for it's time. I suspect that it wasn't done in Japan but I don't know for sure. The folks at the Design Center in Atsugi never wanted to admit that it wasn't done in Japan. I suspect it was done in Italy and then engineered in Japan. If anybody knows for sure I'd like to know.

I can tell you for SURE that the S30-series Z range was indeed designed and engineered in Japan. Most of the main figures involved in designing, engineering and producing the range are still alive and well, and have been telling their stories over the last few years. You seem to be well behind the game in this respect. You need to do a little catching up.

You will soon find the answer as to why the people you met at the Design Centre in Atsugi "never wanted to admit that it wasn't done in Japan". It WAS a Japanese product.

But in what way was the S30-series Z design a "breakthrough"? I can tell you that the Chief Designer considered it to be already somewhat out of date in styling terms by the time it hit the market, and mechanically it was not exactly earth shattering. The designer himself admits that its biggest selling point was that such a great package of style and substance could be had for such a low price in its largest export market, and that the penny pinching imposed on his team affected the design almost as much as any other single factor.

.......but just look at what was being put on the road by Nissan at that time. The 510 was the only real exception and it wasn't a strong design statement like the Z. It was done by Kazumi Yotsumoto our first president. He chose to change the subject when pressed about the 240.

Yotsumoto "changed the subject"? Is this some kind of allusion to a conspiracy theory or something? I think you need to look a little bit more deeply into the internal company politics of the period in question if you want to get a proper handle on all this. And did Yotsumoto tell you that he "did" the 510?

Reading between the lines of the above quote, I get the feeling that you are classing the S30-series Z as some kind of 'cut above' Nissan's other products of the period in pure styling terms. It reminds me of the times one has in the past read comments implying that "the Japanese" could not possibly have designed the Z, as it was too classy / beautiful / sexy ( etc etc ) and must therefore have been from the pen of a non-Japanese stylist ( as though Japanese people were in some way inherently incapable of designing such a thing ). Such thinking is retarded at best, and might well be downright racist at worst. I certainly hope this is not your intention.

Maybe the Z was done completely in house while they were also doing cars like the B210 right along side. It's possible. Any thing's possible. I wouldn't have said anything about outside help if I'd been asked.

Your theory seems to be about as accurate as your dating of the B210 design - which debuted in the Japanese market in May 1973. Maybe you meant the B110, which debuted in January 1970? In any case, the S30-series Z was not designed alongside the Sunny, Bluebird, Laurel, Skyline, Cedric or Gloria - it was the product of a different studio within the company.

I’m sure that there are very few folks still around that could shed any light on the very beginnings of the 240 Z. In as much as I was able to sit in on many meetings involving what happened in design, maybe there are others who also were privy to information that might be helpful. I do know that we would sometimes compete in projects that were also assigned to design companies outside of Nissan. Who knows somebody may still be out there.

Next time you are in Japan, I suggest you pay a visit to the offices of Mr Yoshihiko Matsuo. Take a bottle of a good single malt Scotch whisky with you, and maybe he will tell you how over thirty six years ago he and his team designed, engineered and productionised a range of cars that some people today still want to try and attribute to somebody - seemingly anybody - else.

Respectfully,

Alan T.

[LEB]

Oh my,

Sorry Allen,

I’m not a history buff and I’m not trying to say that the Z wasn’t done in Japan. I shouldn’t have said it that way. I was just stirring the pot. My mistake. My intention is to question the original sources that might have been used. My experience is only derived by being there when these things were discussed. I would not ever expect the Japanese to say they were influenced by anything outside of Japan. It wouldn’t be in any one's best interest and it would fly in the face of their culture as well as ours. At GM and NDI we had a saying that there was a “not invented here” syndrome. I’ve also have lapses of memory from time to time and you’re right, I’m probably thinking of the B110. I apologize for the above. I don’t mean to offend people who have strong feelings about their cars or the history of them for that matter.

We were established in 79 by a Nissan President I believe his name was Ishihara. The logic was that Japan had a different set of aesthetics and thus NDI was established to do design for the American market. I am suggesting that at that time there was a perceived difference between the American taste and the Japanese taste. I’ve never subscribed to this theory but without it I’d still be freezing in Detroit.

There were still four sections of design there when we arrived in 79-80. I believe that there was not the absolute separation between them that you suggest. What I saw was a rather consensus orientated style of management. I did see models that were in the same room which belonged to different sections. Space was at a premium before the Tech Center.

I was told that Yotsumoto did the 510 only after he had retired. I had no reason to think differently. Should I? It was a rather high up executive that told me. That’s what I get for not being a history buff of the company I spent half my life working for.

Truce? Larry

[Carl Beck]

Hi Larry:

Thanks for sharing your insights with us. Not too often that we actually get to discuss design with people that have actually worked in the automotive industry, let alone within Nissan.

As "toecutter" started the thread more or less to discuss new and old designs.. or what could have been or should have been... Maybe you can provide some insights....

In 1998 when Mr. K was inducted into the Automobile Hall of Fame, Mr. Hirshberg brought an Artists Concept Drawing - of a possible shape for the Next Generation Z...(see picture below). Do you know who did that rendition? It was GREAT!....

Most of the people present told Mr. Hirshberg that they really liked the overall concept, but that it needed just a little more work in the rear end treatment. Nonetheless, it certainly had the "look" of a Z Car again. and carried forward the Z's DNA....

The new Concept for a new Z - of course make all the automotive press at the time.. and Hirshberg and company were under great pressure to have a prototype done by the 1999 Auto Show... With that short a time, as you mentioned they had to use an existing chassis, to get a prototype done for show.. and in that rush the design integrity of the original concept got all but lost. (we'll come back to Design Integrity next Post).

That rushed effort was indeed sad for everyone... The Z Car people hated the "ugly golden toad".. and the Dealers Associate told Nissan they didn't like it either... as a matter of fact the reaction was so overwhelmingly negative - that the following year at the 2000 New York International Auto Show - Mr. Hanawa announced that "We Hear You"... and we will return to the drawing boards with a clean slate design for the next generation Z...

After that - all the Nissan Design Centers submitted various concepts... and everything got very hush hush at Nissan about the new Z over the following year.

When Mr. Goshen finally got full control - the idea of designing and building an entirely new car, with it's own unique chassis... simply would not fly. Cost cutting was the theme of the day to stop the financial bleeding at Nissan Motors Ltd....

At the 2001 Detroit International Auto Show - Carlos sprung the "350-Z" on the public. At first, when only the Concept Drawing was displayed on stage - I thought "WOW"... then they rolled out the metal prototype and I though..."what the heck happened?"... (see second picture below). Do you know who did the Concept Drawings?....

After the introduction of the 350-Z we were all standing around talking to the people from Nissan... and I ask why the car's body lines had grown so "thick" compared to the sleek lines of the concept drawings... and that is when the lead designer pointed to the firewall and said - "we could not reduce the height of the firewall"..... I ask him why not... he replied that they had to use the G35 chassis... At that point I understood what happened... We Classic Z Car Fan's didn't get the car we wanted, nor the car that Mr. Hanawa had promised - we got the best that Carlos could afford to deliver at the time...

You mention earlier how "history" is created in the studio's - and the various stories you read related to the history of how things came about doesn't often match reality - and I have to admit that I laugh out loud when I read some of the stuff Nissan put out about the design and development of the 350-Z.... what a complete joke....

I was glad to see Nissan bring the Z Back... and I'll be pulling for them to again design a Z Car rather than Badge Engineer one.... Only time will tell....

IMHO from a "design" perspective the G35 is a much cleaner and better proportioned car.

FWIW,

Carl B.

[LEB]

Carl,

I’m not going to be of much help here. I’ll probably just confuse things more.

The first package that we got was based on the 240. The sketches that you show in your first photo reflect that package. I believe the artist was Tom Semple. The design, which got reflected on the first showcar, was a Hirshberg. The second photo shows the new package that we got which started the design process all over again. The artist was a young English fellow whose name slips me now (a senior moment) Ajay something. The ¼ scale is in the foreground. It was (if I remember) retrieved from storage for the event.

The package was probably not intended to be unique to either the G35 or the Z. It was probably intended to be shared all along. To make a package for only one product would require that it be a flagship model, as you mentioned we were trying to turn the company around at that time.

Both show cars were done at Metalcrafters and I believe I remember we had to send people to Japan to try to resolve the cowl height problem. I’m not of the camp that is offended by the thickness of the car.

The third picture is Shiro Nakamura who was brought in by Goshen to head up all Nissan Design worldwide. He’s a good guy, originally from Isuzu. Looks a little like a deer in the headlights in your picture. He’s now the President of NDA as well as in charge of all Nissan Design.

Times and dates were never very important to me so I don’t always get them right.

Larry

[HS30-H]

Oh my,

Sorry Allen,

I’m not a history buff and I’m not trying to say that the Z wasn’t done in Japan. I shouldn’t have said it that way. I was just stirring the pot. My mistake. My intention is to question the original sources that might have been used.

Larry,

You don't need to apologise for anything - except perhaps for your spelling of my name.

What I'm worried about is that these things we write here get preserved for electronic posterity ( however long that will be ) and people may be led to use them for reference material in the future. With your added weight of having been so deeply involved in design - and in the Nissan fold to boot - people will take extra notice of what you write. Stirring the pot for the benefit of debate it may be, but it adds kindling to a fire that some of us have been busy trying to stamp out for quite a while.

When you mention "original sources" it worries me again. It seems like you are once again implying that Matsuo and his team must have started from something that was from somebody else's pen ( a 'no smoke without fire' theorem that the great liar Goertz used to his advantage ) almost as though they were in some way incapable of anything more than that. That's the way it reads between the lines to me anyway, and I've seen such things written and discussed before ( so maybe my radar is a little too sensitive ).

My experience is only derived by being there when these things were discussed.

Excuse me if I am wrong on this - but from reading your other posts on this thread I believe that you joined Nissan more than TEN YEARS after the events in question ( that is, the design, engineering and productionisation of the S30-series Z range that debuted in late 1969 ). Many of the major players had moved on by that time, including the chief designer of the whole project. You were not likely to get their side of the story, or indeed any kind word about them.

I would not ever expect the Japanese to say they were influenced by anything outside of Japan. It wouldn’t be in any one's best interest and it would fly in the face of their culture as well as ours.

I'm sorry, but are you talking about the Nineteenth century here? In my opinion and personal experience such sweeping generalisations are way out of date, and were already well out of date during the mid 1960s when the S30-series Z was in the process of being born. You would definitely enjoy taking that bottle of single malt and talking to Matsuo. He would tell you that from his teenage years he had his head buried in every book and magazine that illustrated the work of his heroes; work from styling houses and coachbuilders such as Pinin-Farina, Michelotti, Vignale, Ghia, Touring, Zagato et al. Here's a man ( and many of his team were the same ) who could talk openly about his influences - both positive and negative - and 'fess up about where he took his cues and sourced his inspiration. No artist or craftsman works in a complete vacuum, and Matsuo is very happy to tell you where and what the Z came from. He has very catholic tastes, and they are not limited to the field of automotive styling.

There were still four sections of design there when we arrived in 79-80. I believe that there was not the absolute separation between them that you suggest. What I saw was a rather consensus orientated style of management. I did see models that were in the same room which belonged to different sections. Space was at a premium before the Tech Center.

As mentioned above, I think you arrived after the hurricane and saw the results of the clean-up effort - not the pre-hurricane regime. Matsuo and some others walked out of the company because of some of the people and things that you were to come into contact with later. Don't underestimate just how much of a shake up had already taken place.

I'll leave you in peace to discuss the ( much ) later cars with Carl.

Alan T.

[LEB]

Alan,

I’m not trying to throw water on any body's parade. Please don’t try to discredit me quite so hard. I never said that I was there in 69. I believe that I mentioned a couple of times that I arrived in 79-80.

The discussions that I was privy to (1980-2000) talked about the 240 being out of place from a design quality point of view. Maybe you don’t feel that way but I can easily see the 240 as being of a higher level of design than the typical products coming from Japan and Nissan at that time.

Another observation would be that the Japanese had a much more regimented management structure than I was used to. Managers were not allowed the leeway that I was used to working with. Orders came down and everybody marched.

I ‘m sure there are exceptions to all that I have said and I’m sure I would enjoy talking with Mr. Matsuo. He sounds like my kind of designer. If he had the qualities that you describe, and being responsible for the 240 Z, that might well go a long way in explaining my questions about its development.

In 20 years nobody mentioned anything about a previous hurricane. Their culture (I’ll use the word again) wouldn’t easily abide with discussing such problems with the new kids on the block. Sort of a dirty laundry thing, you just don’t share it.

Please don’t try to read between the lines. I’m perfectly capable of getting into enough trouble with out your help.

Sorry about misspelling your name,

Lary

[zeiss150]

has anyone seen the NEW 350Z body? I saw it in Road and track the october issue the artical was called "future cars", at any rate It is slated for 2008 and it has similar "sugar scoop" headlight buckets. They are also planing on uping the the HP to 350 or so and the VQ will get a displacement bump up to 3.8 liters(shouldn't it be called a 380z then?). keep in mind that im just going from memory, so some of my info could be wrong. My main point is that they put some of the origanl S30 styling back into the Z. Also has anyone ever seen the "other" 350Z body, it took a lot of styling Q's from the S30.

Just my 2 cents.

Matt-

[LEB]

Matt,

I've seen it only briefly in clay and I can't talk about that. I'll go out and get an Oct. Road and Trash and look at what you did.

Thanks, Larry

[moonpup]

Hi Larry,

Welcome to the club....I see you've met Alan!

I understand he is a person engorged with knowledge of early S30 history. It would be nice, however, if he would ocassionally impart some of that knowledge in an educational manner as opposed to what amounts to snobbish lecturing!