Styling.....Porsche Cayman, 350Z & the 240Z...your thoughts?

[Carl Beck]

Hi Larry:

Again, thanks for the input. Interesting stuff..

Ah... Tom Semple. I'll have file that somewhere, where I can find it again. It was a good example of maintaining the DNA of the 240-Z, without it being a "retro" design. The idea that toecutter started the Thread with..

Ajay - "Panchal"... ring a bell?

Yes that is my favorite picture of Mr. Nakamura.. and believe me, at that Introduction of the 350-Z he was a deer in the headlights. He did recover... and later expressed some surprise at the media frenzy... Goshen left him standing there to fend off the Press....while he took his leave.... It was a somewhat awkward... but later funny situation. ;-)

To each his own, but currently nothing in Nissan's line up does much for me in terms of style. I like their full size pick-up's because they are made in the USA and they do contain some good design and engineering (design in terms of user interface, utility as well as form, fit and function).

Yes - "Flagship". Both Mr. Hanawa and later Mr Goshen stated to the Press that the Z Car was Nissan's Flagship product and must be returned to the USA, and it would lead a series of new designs from Nissan. That started the "We Will Build It" ad campaign...

Our input (the IZCC Members) to Nissan (via Mr. Kitahora) was to use the existing 240SX chassis (to keep costs down), beef it up to handle 275-300HP and give us the RB25/26. Nissan's reply was that because the Z was Nissan's Flagship it would get an entirely new chassis unique to the Z Car..... Of course that didn't happen in the end.

FWIW,

Carl B.

[daddz]

I saw this in the March 2006 edition of Road & Track magazine, and thought "now here is the ultimate hybrid Z."

Designed by Peter Brock, of BRE Datsun racing fame. The long hood, the headlight buckets... it all makes for a very attractive retro appearance based on the Shelby Datona Coupe. Reaching 60 mph in 3.5 seconds, and 11.8 seconds for the quarter mile makes me like it even more. :classic:

Keep in mind the fact that Peter Brock designed the original Cobra Daytona Coupe. Hmmm? Maybe there's an idea here?

BTW,

I am smitten with this latest shape to come from BMW (Z4M Coupe). If only they offered this beautiful car in maroon? I think my 350Z would be history. This is more of what I had in mind when I sent in my reply to Nissan's questionnaire circa 1998:

[daddz]

FWIW,

The CEO's name was/is Carlos Ghosn and not 'Goshen' and it is pronounced with the s being silent.

[toecutter]

Wow, interesting info guys. Hmmm...stretching that 350z bonnett would have worked for me. I personally would have liked to have seen lines closer to the original. Similar to these sketches;

[Go240Zags]

Retro designs are rather lame. These designers couldn't think of something new so they remade something old. These designers couldn't even be considered designers. Think about this, what is the next Mustang or Bettle going to look like, they have nowhere to go. Not like Porsche who hasalways evolved their design and made something that looks like a Porsche. I think the car designers that really deserve respect are those designers who make something truely radical, something truely unique. The Next Z should be a car that continues to move forward, but keeps the classic cues that have been lost (the long nose for instance). This is what the Corvette has become. The Corvette design has been constanly changing. In fact the only thing that made the first 3 generations the same car is there name. But i would like to see more 240z in the 350Z. It should cost less, weigh less, and have that long nose at very least. But by no means should it be a 240Z, if someone wants a 240Z they can go buy a 240Z.

I don't think retro is lame at all, as long as it is an update of what came before -- better mechanicals, fit and finish and a tip of that hat to the original. If you don't use styling cues from the original, why bother calling it a Z at all? I'm sure the 350Z is a great car to drive, looked good sitting in one at the dealer, but not my cup of tea as far as looks from the outside. The one thing from the earliest Zs I require in any car is enough room to comfortbaly fit my 6' 6" frame. The 350Z seemed a little tight to me. Also, I think the new Ford Mustang is a wonderful homage to the original.

[Carl Beck]

Well,

....snipped..

The S30 was a breakthrough design for it's time.

Larry

Hi Larry (everyone):

The Datsun 240-Z is recognized by many automotive authorities and historians as one of the ten most important automobiles in US Auto History.

In one series of articles by AUTOMOBILE Magazine.. devoted to selecting the top Sports/GT's of the Decade.. the Datsun 240-Z came in right below the Ferrari 365GTB-4 Daytona...(and actually the Daytona should have been in the Decade of the 60's IMHO). The Father of the Z Car was inducted into the American Automobile Hall Of Fame in 1998... one of the very few people still living to receive that high honor.

To call it a "break through design" is an understatement in my opinion. The Datsun 240-Z not only shattered the traditional sports car market in America (the worlds largest, most open and competitive market), it pushed the Reset Button in peoples minds, related to how the Quality of not only Japanese automobiles, but all Japanese Products were perceived. In marketing and sales, perception is 90% of reality.

The huge success of the design, was in no small part due to Mr. Matsuo and his team being able to retain "design integrity" throughout the entire process from concept to production. What was designed, was built as designed, what was built was tested, what was tested was corrected. Then what was designed, built, tested and corrected was produced. This seems to happen only rarely in the automotive field. As you pointed out, most original designs are badly compromised by the time they make it through the production phase. (if they make it at all).

The next question that comes to mind then is; " why did the introduction of the Datsun 240-Z send such a shockwave through the American Market." Followed by; "why did so many automotive writers feel that they had to attribute the design to someone outside of Nissan Motors Ltd.?".

The Datsun 240-Z hit the American Car Loving Public and the Auto Executives at the Big Three like a splash of cold water in the face. It was a wake-up call that could not be ignored. WOW, the Japanese are getting serious about building and selling cars that are not only competitive - but world beating!! You could literally see that shockwave move across American as the Datsun 240-Z's were delivered to the Dealers in most major cities .... Likewise you could follow it in the Automotive Press of the time.

Why did no one attribute the design to the correct source in the first place?

1. Nissans past history of buying production rights to other manufacturers cars had lot to do with it I believe. Purchasing Gorham's patents to produce the first Datson, Graham-Page's Crusader along with all tooling and technology to produce it and the Model 73 engine in Japan as the full size Nissan Model 70 and Graham-Page's Truck Designs prior to the war. Then the licensing of the production rights to the Austin in the 50's... and hiring outside design consultants like Pininfarina for the 411 in the 60's .. and re-badging the Prince line of cars as Nissan's etc. etc..

As you pointed out - the first insight that Nissan Motors Ltd. was actually developing a solid in-house design department appeared in the early 60's... first with the roadster... that people then thought was a copy of the MG-B (although it pre-dated the introduction of the ... then with the PL510... aimed squarely at the American Market with it's 1600cc OHC engine.. which most people thought was just a copy of the BMW 1600 sedan....(neither of which did Nissan do anything to refute in a PR sense).

So when the Z was introduced in Oct. of 69.... most of the automotive press was already pre-conditioned to believe it had to come from somewhere other than Nissan's Design Dept.

2. This unfortunately was compounded by the "Company" culture of the Japanese Automobile Manufacturers. Nissan simply said it was a "Nissan Design".... when the Automotive Press wanted to know what Individual was responsible, or what individual should be credited. Nissan failing to supply the Press with information they wanted ... that left only a void to be filled by speculation. Helped along by Mr. Goertz's self-promoting BS.. the Press put 1 and 1 together and came up with 5.... hence the Goertz Myth was firmly attached to the Datsun 240-Z.

The pathway to the Myth was I believe helped along and in the wrong direction - because the Automotive Press and sadly the authors of most of the books written about the Z Car... followed the series of Cars from Nissan: Datson, Datsun DC-3, SP 211 and the first "Fair Lady SPL 212. then the Fairlady 310 Roadsters etc. ...... leading right up to the Goertz CSP311 Silvia Coupe. and arriving then at the Z Car....

I believe that the pathway to the truth - is based on following the growth and development of Nissan Motors itself, rather than the cars it produced - most specifically as it was reformed after WW-II. First re-organized to repair WW-II US Military Vehicles left in the Pacific Theater, then allowed to restart production of trucks for Japan's rebuilding, followed by permission to resume production of automobiles. After which Nissan was given contracts by the US Government to build Jeeps for the war in Korea.... Infused by US Capital - Nissan started to rebuild their production and manufacturing facilities first... as they had always been primarily a production and manufacturing oriented concern. After Nissan had reestablished their foundation of production and manufacturing through the 50's, they turned their focus to develop an in-house design capability in the early 60's...

If you follow the growth and development of that in-house design capability... it is easy to see how the 510 and Z Car came about.... They were completely different than anything Nissan had been offering in the past... because they came from a completely different origin. There is no roadster DNA in the Z.... but I believe it is the second child of Nissan's newly formed and focused design capabilities.

FWIW,

Carl B.

[LEB]

Gee Carl, nicely put.

Makes a lot of sense. I've been enlightened on this can of worms I opened. Thanks.

Is what you're saying about the early Datsun Pickup mean that the sheet-metal was actually Austin? I've got two of them. A 58 and a 62 from what I could tell.

Your help is much appreciated.

Larry

[Carl Beck]

Hi Larry:

I've not researched the Pick-up's to any serious extent, but looking at the 58 Pick-up sure looks like they used the same sheetmetal for the cab, as they used for their Austin based sedans. The only one I've ever seen was at Les Cannaday's shop (Classic Datsun Motorsports).

From the very earliest days, Datson, Nissan were successful with their little pick-up's. I believe that somewhere I read that only 10 were imported in 58 - so you have a very rare piece there. Likewise there can't be many from 62 left around either.

According to Rae's History of Nissan /Datsun in USA 1960-1980...

Quoting Wards Automotive in Appendix B:

58... 0 pick-up's and 83 cars

59... 179 pick-up's and 1131 cars

60....346 pick-ups and 1294 cars

61...279 pick-up's and 1157 cars

62...736 pick-up's and 1812 cars

FWIW,

Carl B.