Early 5-Speed

[rdstronr]

Can someone tell me what an early 5-speed gear box should be worth.

This would be the FS5C71A (Roadster box with extended tail section & different bellhousing). How much with ultra close or middle close ratios?

[ezzzzzzz]

About $200 as a spare for mine. Seriously. if you're looking to get rid of it let me know. I really have one in my 240Z and like it even if it isn't the strongest box out there.

[Carl Beck]

Like many things "collectible"... where there are few items available, but also few buyers seeking them... the actual "worth" is established by the current seller and serious buyer - at the point they reach agreement.

If someone actually needed one - and needed it badly enough and soon.... and "if" the transmission was in perfect working order - not needing rebuild nor refreshing - then you might see $800.00 to $1,200.00 change hands. If the gears and synchro's are worn... the seals leaking...maybe $300.00 to $500.00

Because the ultra-close has such a very high 1st gear - there really isn't much demand for them, except among the roadster racers... who actually want the higher 2nd gear in them. That doesn't seem to effect the price of them so much as it does the time it takes to find a buyer. (I've known people that have held them for years before finding a buyer that needed one). The middle close gear set will sell quicker, as it can be used with a 3.9 to 4.11 rear gear on the street.

Past someone actually needing one - for whatever reason - there are people who simply would like to have one. However because their demand is driven by desire, rather than actual need - they will usually stop short of spending much over $400.00 for a good transmission.

Several months ago - I had a friend looking for an ultra-close ratio... he found one and paid $900.00 for it. It was in a running car at the time, so he could drive it and check it out. A gear box sitting on the ground is usually a pig-in-a-poke... and unless you are a recognized mechanic, or a known racer with some creditability related to determining the condition of the transmission ... it can be hard to convince any potential buyer that the transmission is any good at all.

I guess the bottom line is - how fast do you want to move it out of your garage? Is it worth holding a couple more years if you could get $900.00 for it instead of a quick $400.00 now? All personal decisions you'll have to make....

good luck,

Carl B.

[HS30-H]

rdstronr,

What are the ratios that you are describing as "ultra close" and "middle close"?

The FS5C71-A transmission was supplied as standard equipment on the Fairlady Z432 and Z432-R ( although with a different bellhousing ), Fairlady Z-L ( 'S30' ), and in the first few months of Fairlady 240Z-L and Fairlady 240ZG production, and on all Export-market Datsun 240Z ( 'HS30' and 'HLS30' ) models - except the 'HLS30U' - up to the end of December 1971.

Are the ratios that you mentioned different to those supplied in the standard production models listed above?

I have four FS5C71-A units sitting on my garage floor at the moment. You can't give them away over here.

Alan T.

[jmortensen]

The CP vintage Z racers use the Comp trannies as well, as they were available from Datsun back in the day. In fact I believe those are the only 5 speeds that are technically vintage legal. The middle close seems to be the one everyone really wants, with the ultra close not as desireable. That's in my very limited experience seeing other people talk about them on Datsun racing websites. Prices I've seen have been very high, I think Carl is a bit low in his estimations, especially with regards to the middle close box.

I used to have a website bookmarked that had all the ratios, but I can't find it now. It had the middle close and ultra close listed as such. This site: http://www.geocities.com/z_design_studio/ has them too, but doesn't have them listed. If memory serves, the second from the bottom Comp box is the middle close and the bottom is the ultra close. If you look at the spread between the gears, the middle close seems like it has a much preferable 3rd to 4th gear gap.

Alan, I think that the Comp boxes had 1:1 5th gear, and the Roadster units had a .8:1 5th gear.

[HS30-H]

Alan, I think that the Comp boxes had 1:1 5th gear, and the Roadster units had a .8:1 5th gear.

We're not getting mixed up between the F5C71-B ( direct drive 'dogleg' box ) and the FS5C71-A overdrive box are we?

Always seems to be a lot of confusion surrounding the proper codes for these boxes and their applications. Its easily done. It is quite confusing, I think - especially when Datsun Competition in the USA were calling some boxes 'Comp.' boxes when they were standard equipment in other territories.

My 'Nissan Sport Service' Japan transmission 'bible' lists three optional gear sets for the FS5C71-A, as follows:

Option 1

1st - 2.678, 2nd - 1.704, 3rd - 1.262, 4th - 1.00, 5th - 0.852, Rev - 2.922

Option 2

1st - 1.858, 2nd - 1.388, 3rd - 1.217, 4th - 1.00, 5th - 0.852, Rev - 2.922

Option 3

1st - 2.554, 2nd - 1.758, 3rd - 1.271, 4th - 1.00, 5th - 0.850, Rev - 2.922

Original Equipment ( S30, HS30, PS30 etc )

1st - 2.957, 2nd - 1.858, 3rd - 1.311, 4th - 1.00, 5th - 0.852, Rev - 2.922

If this is a direct-drive 'dogleg' box we are discussing the price of, then prices are definitely on the up. I sold a 'Rally' option B-type to Holland for £2,000 last year, and the last 'Option 2' B-type I had went back to Japan for £1,750 two years ago. I still have an 'Option 1' B-type in stock which will not get sold for any less than that. You just can't get them.

Alan T.

[jmortensen]

I don't own and haven't owned any of these, so I'm just relating the info that I've seen flicker across the computer screen. My impression has been that the Datsun "Comp" boxes that we are referring to in the US are the direct drive dog-leg units.

I did have the guts of a couple of steel synchroed transmissions at one point (no cases, but everything else), one was a roadster trans with a 3.3:1 1st gear and the .8 OD, the other Ron Carter said was a real oddball. Had a 2.8 or 2.9:1 1st gear with a .8 OD and had a flanged output shaft and a 2 piece driveshaft. I had a friend in need and I gave him the two transmissions and he put the closer ratio gears on the regular mainshaft that takes a slip yoke. He picked through and used the best synchro rings and used bearings and seals from a standard 5 speed case. Then he put all the guts into a early Z 5 speed housing. He's still running that setup in his race 510 today some 6 or 7 years later.

[rdstronr]

Thank you all for your input. The ratios I'm referring to are:

Standard

1st - 2.957, 2nd - 1.855, 3rd - 1.310, 4th - 1.00, 5th - 0.852, Rev - 2.922

Middle close - Option 1

1st - 2.678, 2nd - 1.704, 3rd - 1.262, 4th - 1.00, 5th - 0.852, Rev - 2.922

Ultra close - Option 2

1st - 1.858, 2nd - 1.388, 3rd - 1.217, 4th - 1.00, 5th - 0.852, Rev - 2.922

[jmortensen]

I still think you'd have lots of interest from CP racers, probably $1500 for a brand new rebuild, $800 for a used, a couple hundred for broke down and busted.

[Carl Beck]

We're not getting mixed up between the F5C71-B ( direct drive 'dogleg' box ) and the FS5C71-A overdrive box are we?

Hi Alan (everyone)

Terms seem to be used quite inconsistently to be sure. I don't believe that we here in the USA ever had an option to purchase the non-synchronized "dog box" or "dogleg box". Although a few of them did make their way into the US over the years.

If we followed Nissan's transmission coding scheme - a direct drive (1:1 ratio in 5th gear) that was a non-synchronized box - the dogleg box would be a F571B wouldn't it????

Maybe we should try lining up Part Numbers.

Always seems to be a lot of confusion surrounding the proper codes for these boxes and their applications. Its easily done. It is quite confusing, I think - especially when Datsun Competition in the USA were calling some boxes 'Comp.' boxes when they were standard equipment in other territories.

I agree that there is lots of confusion - but as to Datsun Competition use of the term "Competition" applied to the transmission options - I do not believe what you have outlined was really the case.

The Datsun Competition Dept. here in the US used the term "Competition 5sd." to differentiate the FS5C71B transmissions from the standard F4W71B and later the FS5W71B available in the 1977 and forward 280Z/ZX's in North America.

The 4spd. F4W71B and the Overdrive 5spd. FS5W71B, that was optional in the 77+ 280Z/and standard in ZX came with wide ratio gears and utilized the Warner type synchronizers. The "Overdrive Competition 5spd." (FS5C71B) utilized the Servo type synchronizers and was offered in either Wide or Close ratios:

Wide Ratio: #32010-N3200

1st - 3.321, 2nd-2.077, 3rd-1.308, 4th-1.00, 5th- 0.864

Close Ratio: #32010-N3030

1st-2.906, 2nd-1.902, 3rd-1.308, 4th-1.00, 5th- 0.864

Datsun Competition also offered a "Direct Drive 5spd" with 5th gear being a 1:1 ratio. The F5C71B These were referred to as the "Racing Transmissions" by Datsun Competition, and were offered with four different gear sets.

Race Transmission #1: #32010-N3220

1st-2.818, 2nd-1.973, 3rd-1.470, 4th-1.192, 5th-1.00

Race Transmission #2: #32010-N3221

1st-2.348, 2nd-1/601, 3rd-1.296, 4th-1.138, 5th-1.00

Race Transmission #3: #32010-N3222

1st-2.192, 2nd-1.601, 3rd-1.470, 4th-1.138, 5th-1.00

Rally Transmission: #32010-N3201

1st-3.321, 2nd-2.270, 3rd-1.601, 4th-1.240, 5th-1.00

So here in the US - per Datsun Competition's use of the terms:

Competition 5spd = overdrive with servo (steel) synchronizers) FS5C71B

Racing 5spd = direct drive with servo (steel) synchronizers) F5C71B

A side note just for fun:

The "Warner" type synchronizers are brass, the servo (aka Porsche type) synchronizers are steel. The Warner type provide smoother shifting - the steel synchronizers wear longer, and they will take higher RPM. Porsche actually licensed their synchronizers from Warner the Patient Holder.. then modified the design to use steel. The extended shift linkage length, in the Porsches put additional and constant pressure on the synchronizers in their transmissions (kind of like riding around with your hand resting on our shift levers), causing the brass to wear prematurely, so a design change to steel was required.

FWIW,

Carl B.

Carl Beck

Clearwater, FL USA

http://ZHome.com

[Carl Beck]

My 'Nissan Sport Service' Japan transmission 'bible' lists three optional gear sets for the FS5C71-A, as follows:

Hi Alan (everyone)

Our Datsun Competition Catalogs list the following, but these are part numbers for gear assemblies (not entire transmissions). I'll try to line them up with your input.

Option 1

1st - 2.678, 2nd - 1.704, 3rd - 1.262, 4th - 1.00, 5th - 0.852, Rev - 2.922

Middle Close Ratio: Part Number=99996-J3010

1st-2.678, 2nd-1.704, 3rd-1.262, 4th-1.00, 5th-0.852

Option 2

1st - 1.858, 2nd - 1.388, 3rd - 1.217, 4th - 1.00, 5th - 0.852, Rev - 2.922

Ultra-Close Ratio: Part Number = NMCRK-32011

1st-1.858, 2nd-1.388, 3rd-1.217, 4th-1.00, 5h-0.852

Option 3

1st - 2.554, 2nd - 1.758, 3rd - 1.271, 4th - 1.00, 5th - 0.850, Rev - 2.922

I can't find anything on this end that matches that gearing.

Original Equipment ( S30, HS30, PS30 etc )

1st - 2.937, 2nd - 1.858, 3rd - 1.311, 4th - 1.00, 5th - 0.852, Rev - 2.922

Stock Ratio: Part Number= 99996-J3020

1st-2.957, 2nd-2.858, 3rd-1.311, 4th-1.00, 5th-0.852

Note: I believe that a Part Number starting with "99996-" in the Datsun Competition Parts Catalogs - mean it was some configuration of parts put together by the Datsun Competition Dept. and assigned a Part Number by them.

FWIW,

Carl B.

Clearwater, FL USA

http://ZHome.com

Edited to correct typo's or wrong data...cjb

[HS30-H]

Phew Carl, you really like giving me a lot of 'homework', don't you?

Hi Alan (everyone)

Terms seem to be used quite inconsistently to be sure. I don't believe that we here in the USA ever had an option to purchase the non-synchronized "dog box" or "dogleg box". Although a few of them did make their way into the US over the years.

When I say "Dogleg box" I'm referring to the colloquialism for the shift pattern - with 1st gear over to the left of the gate and back ( opposite Reverse ). Here in the UK we've always called that kind of shift pattern a "Dogleg" shift pattern, and it has nothing to do with synchros or the lack of therein. A "Dog Box" is quite a different thing altogether. This is the colloquialism for a transmission with 'Dog' engagement rings rather than sychromesh rings - which ( as far as I am aware ) were not offered for sale to the general public by Nissan as a 'Sports Option' or competition part whilst the S30-series Z was current. In fact, the first instance of such that would fit ( retrospectively ) a trans used in the S30-series Z ( in this case the FS5C71-B and F5C71-B ) would be the straight-cut dog box used in the Nissan 240RS.

If we followed Nissan's transmission coding scheme - a direct drive (1:1 ratio in 5th gear) that was a non-synchronized box - the dogleg box would be a F571B wouldn't it????

I have Nissan literature that still uses the 'FS5C71-B' code when referring to the 'Direct Drive' ( ie - 1:1 fifth gear ) transmissions, and also instances of "F(S)5C71-B" being used ( note the brackets ). As far as I am aware, the correct ( whatever that means! ) code for the 'Direct Drive' 'Dogleg' box is 'F5C71-B' ( no 'S' ).

.....that was a non-synchronized box.......

Er, be careful here. Like I said - as far as I know Nissan never offered a true non-synchro box to the general public until well after the S30-series Z had ceased production.

I agree that there is lots of confusion - but as to Datsun Competition use of the term "Competition" applied to the transmission options - I do not believe what you have outlined was really the case.

My point was that ( from my point of view at least ) Datsun Competition USA was selling a standard production part as a "Competition" part. I'll make the point here:

The 4spd. F4W71B and the Overdrive 5spd. FS5W71B, that was optional in the 77+ 280Z/and standard in ZX came with wide ratio gears and utilized the Warner type synchronizers. The "Overdrive Competition 5spd." (FS5C71B) utilized the Servo type synchronizers and was offered in either Wide or Close ratios:

Wide Ratio: #32010-N3200

1st - 3.321, 2nd-2.077, 3rd-1.308, 4th-1.00, 5th- 0.864

That's it right there: the 32010-N3200.

This was the standard equipment transmission on most of the S30-series Z models that were not sold in the USA / Canada post July 1972. It superseded the 32010-E8752 ( also an 'FS5C71-B' ) which was fitted from January 1972 as the standard 5-speed to replace the 'A' box.

Did I make my point clearly? Datsun Competition USA was selling a "Competition" 5-speed which was standard equipment on the vast majority of non USA-Canada market models. So did all those cars have what can be called 'Competition' transmissions? I don't think so.

Pause for breath.......

Alan T.