1970 240Z Low# For Sale On Ebay

[Carl Beck]

A register of Zeds in Australia and New Zealand has been initiated and can be found on

http://wazregister.com/index.php?action=viewdetails

The 1970 HS30 vehicles reported by owners include

HS30 00117 L24 015308 1/1970

HS30 00157 Not Known 12/1970

HS30 00219 L24 018018 1/1970

HS30 00280 L24 021364 11/1970

HS30 00306 L24 021698 9/1970 Verified above as accurate by Mr C

HS30 00696 L24 301849 1/1970

HS30 00958 L24 042111 1/1970

HS30 00352 L24 021447 1/1971

A quick scan of the above summary of early cars reveals several inconsistencies that could be attributed to any one or number of reasons (including reporting errors) but there are certainly some VIN numbers and production dates that are not sequential. We can make of this whatever we want or speculate at will - and I would be interested in any light thrown on the above.

Hi Dave:

Here is the link to the Internet Z Car Club Register:

<a href=http://zhome.com/IZCC/ZRegisters/classicHS.htm TARGET=NEW> http://zhome.com/IZCC/ZRegisters/classicHS.htm</a><br>

I've taken you list - compared it to our listing, and my private files.. then added the most likely production months to the cars listed.. also put them in VIN order..

The 1970 HS30 vehicles reported by owners include - and based on engine serial numbers production (month/year) would be close to:

HS30 00117 L24 015308 1/1970 (10/70)

HS30 00157 Not Known 12/1970 ????

HS30 00219 L24 018018 1/1970 (11/70)

HS30 00280 L24 021364 11/1970 (12/70)

HS30 00306 L24 021698 9/1970 Verified above as accurate by Mr C (12/70)

HS30 00352 L24 021447 1/1971 (12/70)

HS30 00696 L24 301849 1/1970 (Should be 031849 - (03/71)

HS30 00958 L24 042111 1/1970 (06/71)

However, as far as the auction vehicle itself is concerned, would not the production plate and the photo of the VIN# on the body indicate that this is currently one of the earliest recorded road going HS30's in Australia? The vehicle is obviously not stock but it may well be a tempting restoration project for anyone with a bent for early Zeds.

I have:

HS30 #04 as 01/70

HS20 #16 as 04/70

HS30 #44 as 07/70

HS30 #60 as 08/70

FWIW,

Carl B.

Carl Beck

Clearwater, FL USA

http://ZHome.com

[Carl Beck]

...snipped...

Cars that early never got the aussie compliance plate, so maybe he's guessing a bit.

I think from memory that the 240z was available from March or April 1970 in Australia, so that probably where he got the date from.

HS30-00306 has a date of 9/1970 (on the compliance plate, when the car arrived in Australia) and has an engine number of L24-021698 so this #60 is probably a bit earlier than September.

It would be good if we could pin down at what point they actually started afixing Compliance Tags to cars. I've been told many times that they didn't start until 1971. Prior to that they just had paperwork.

On average it took 3 months to get a car from production, to or into Australia.

Engine Serial Numbers for cars produced in 09/70 are all in the L24-12xxx to L24-145xx range.

A car can be built after it's original engine - but it can't be built before it's engine was produced - - I believe that HS30-00306 was more than likely built 12/70 - and would have most likely had a Compliance Tag of 03/71.

HS30-00306 has been on our HS Register since 09/17/04

FWIW,

Carl B.

Carl Beck

Clearwater, FL USA

http://ZHome.com

[boyblunda]

This is excellent useful information Carl - thankyou for the trouble you have taken to check it out and post back.

No doubt this is an example of one of the finer details in Zed history we have the opportunity to nail down now before the constant repetition of incorrect information creates a myth.

Thanks again.

Regards

[boyblunda]

Hi Carl

Just had a quick look at the link you provided and note that it is only for 240Z's. Is there another register for HS30 and GRS30 right hand drive vehicles?

[HS30-H]

No doubt this is an example of one of the finer details in Zed history we have the opportunity to nail down now before the constant repetition of incorrect information creates a myth.

I agree.

Unfortunately, there are myths all over the place:

Quote from zhome.com:

"Special Note #1: The first "HS30" Series Datsun 240Z's started production in Jan. or Feb. of 1970."

I know what "started production" means to me - but others may not agree.

Here's a little bit of evidence from Nissan themselves:

[Carl Beck]

Hi Carl

Just had a quick look at the link you provided and note that it is only for 240Z's. Is there another register for HS30 and GRS30 right hand drive vehicles?

Hi Dave:

The HS30 is the Right Hand Drive 240-Z, and that's the Register for which I provided the link. We currently support the following individual Registers for Classic (70-73), Collectible and Special Interest Z's.

Original Owners -Datsun 240-Z's

Classic 240-Z's

Classic Fairlady Z's

Nissan Vintage Z Program Cars

The 1980 10th Anniversity 280ZX

The 1984 50th Anniversary 300ZX

The Z31.com Site maintains a register for all 84-96 300ZX's.

So far - no one that I know of (might be some somewhere on the Net.) - has been willing to devote the time/effort etc to starting, building and then continuing to support any Registers for the Right/Left hand drive 260's.

All the Registers that the IZCC currently supports are contained with the IZCC Section, of the Z Car Home Page http://ZHome.com

FWIW,

Carl B.

[Carl Beck]

I agree.

Unfortunately, there are myths all over the place:

Quote from zhome.com:

"Special Note #1: The first "HS30" Series Datsun 240Z's started production in Jan. or Feb. of 1970."

I know what "started production" means to me - but others may not agree.

Here's a little bit of evidence from Nissan themselves:

Hi Alan (everyone)

Yes, while it could be true that HS30 00003 started production in 69, we have not yet found the car to be in existence. As you pointed out in an earlier thread - Nissan's publications can contain a lot of mistakes and mis-information.

The primary reason for that statement, was to debunk the common Myth that the first 500 "HS30" Z's were produced in 1969. For years we saw HS30's advertised For Sale in Australia/NZ with VIN's between HS30 00004 - HS30 00500 represented as being 1969 Production Year cars... which certainly was not the case.

We do have HS30 00004 and we (its current owner at the time and I ) agreed that the car was most likely produced in Jan. or Feb. of 1970. Based, among other things, on its original engine serial number and his memory of when it arrived in Australia mid-1970.

Some of the US Nissan Publications also show production of units sold to the public - starting at HLS30 00013. So far we have not been able to find the car nor any record of it being sold.

So are HS30 00003 and HLS30 00013 thru 00015 Myths?... could be - but so far we list what we can find.

FWIW,

Carl B.

[boyblunda]

The good thing about this sort of discussion is that varying view points and the supporting evidence is tabled while we have the documentation and people to make and verify statements.

Maybe the answers to some questions will have to lie somewhere in a grey area and be able to be reviewed at a later date when more evidence comes to light.

What is important, and very much appreciated, is that we have some extremely knowledgeable people willing to take the time and trouble to share the information and viewpoints they have, and in the process educate newbies like myself.

On the subject of a register for 260Z owners, I thought I read two separate offers (from MikeW post 12 and Mr Camouflage post 30) to respectively initiate or expand a register project in the thread (Edit insert): http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17906&highlight=VIN.

With regard to the Zhome HS30 register, I just had a quick read and note that there is only one UK based vehicle on that register - a Samuri conversion - and that all of the rest are from Australia and New Zealand. Not surprising maybe given that these are countries that have right hand drive but I would have thought that more people would have registered. A lot of Z owners must just drive their cars and do not bother with registering them - a shame as it could be an opportunity lost to maintain part of the history of these vehicles.

[Carl Beck]

..snipped...

With regard to the Zhome HS30 register, I just had a quick read and note that there is only one UK based vehicle on that register - a Samuri conversion - and that all of the rest are from Australia and New Zealand. Not surprising maybe given that these are countries that have right hand drive but I would have thought that more people would have registered. A lot of Z owners must just drive their cars and do not bother with registering them - a shame as it could be an opportunity lost to maintain part of the history of these vehicles.

Hi Dave:

A long time ago, there was, and still may be (???) an organization devoted strictly to the "Classic" Datsun Z's in Great Britain. That was/is - as I recall - "the Classic Z Car Registry" in England. It very well could be that the majority of the Datsun 240-Z owners there, are registered with that organization, and feel no further need to register anywhere else. I don't believe they ever established a presents on the Web, anyone know if they did or not?

The Z Club of Great Britain used to publish the number of various Z Cars registered for road use in Great Britain and as I recall there were indeed very very few left there. Of the original 2000 or so sent the GB, it seems to me that something less than 75 were still registered for road use there.. at the last report.

Also keep in mind that the Classic Car Registers are most pointedly to encourage the preservation of Stock examples, so highly modified cars are not usually found there either.

FWIW

Carl B.

Carl Beck

Clearwater, FL USA

http://ZHome.com

[HS30-H]

Yes, while it could be true that HS30 00003 started production in 69, we have not yet found the car to be in existence. As you pointed out in an earlier thread - Nissan's publications can contain a lot of mistakes and mis-information.

Hi Carl,

Perhaps you have a different viewpoint than mine with regard to verification and documentation of a car's existence? My personal attitude in this kind of situation ( ie - trying to establish whether a car or cars plural with particular VIN / body number(s) ever actually existed ) is that I don't necessarily expect to find the actual car(s) concerned. I'd just be happy to establish that they existed at the time concerned.

I don't actually expect HS30-00001, HS30-00002 and HS30-00003 to suddenly turn up out of the blue to let us examine them and establish when they were actually built. Without this physical evidence, I think it is very presumptuous to write: ""Special Note #1: The first "HS30" Series Datsun 240Z's started production in Jan. or Feb. of 1970."

At the present time, it seems to me that the likely build date of HS30-00004 has been established - but this should not necessarily be taken to mean that the three cars given the numbers preceding it were made hours or even days before it. It could have been several weeks or indeed months.

We have discussed the matters of 'Sekkei Shisaku', 'Gijyutsu ( Kojyo ) Shisaku' and 'Seisan Shisaku' on this forum before - and we should not forget that a total of 61 "prototypes" were reported to have been made ( with at least the 'Seisan Shisaku' cars being assigned a full VIN and body serial number ) - so we could go back to that philosophical discussion about when a car is a car, and what constitutes a physical identity. In the case of the very first 'HS30' prefixed cars, I'd say that since it is highly likely that HS30-00001, HS30-00002 and HS30-00003 actually did exist, we would have to be very foolish to discount the likelihood that they were made some time in late 1969 and were 'Seisan Shisaku' cars, and were therefore assigned a full VIN and body serial number.

The primary reason for that statement, was to debunk the common Myth that the first 500 "HS30" Z's were produced in 1969. For years we saw HS30's advertised For Sale in Australia/NZ with VIN's between HS30 00004 - HS30 00500 represented as being 1969 Production Year cars... which certainly was not the case.

OK - I understand the frustration with that myth, but aren't you also failing to mention a very important factor here? I believe this happened at the time when you still believed that the 'HLS30' and 'HS30' shared a body numbering sequence, correct? Wasn't there a lot of confusion caused by body numbers due to that misconception? For example, something like where 'HS30-00035' was known to still exist, but so was 'HLS30-00035'? Surely that was part of the reason why you wanted to promote that "first 500" as being 'HLS30' cars?

Unfortunately, I think most people who read zhome.com would come away thinking that the first 500 of all S30-series Z cars were 'HLS30U' models. Which is not the case is it?

Some of the US Nissan Publications also show production of units sold to the public - starting at HLS30 00013. So far we have not been able to find the car nor any record of it being sold.

Here again I would say that to "find" the car might be a hope too far. I'd be satisfied to establish that it was likely to have existed in the first place, and that physically finding the car ( 36 years later ) might be unlikely. Since it is clear that cars with the same VIN prefix and body serial numbers preceding 00013 did exist, I think it is almost certain that HLS30-00013 existed too.

You might be looking for these early cars in the wrong place. I think it is possible that a car or cars around that number could have been sent to Europe - for the 1970 Geneva show for example. We should not forget that the 'HLS30' VIN prefix was not exclusive to the North American market. And I would have expected Nissan to keep several examples of early 'Seisan Shisaku' cars in or around the factory for all sorts of reasons too.

Alan T.

[240 in OZ]

Carl

Sorry for the dated reply/information. I have been doing some research lately in regards to compliance plate fitment here in Australia and have come up with the following dates.

Mandatory fitment registered on or after-

South Australia - 1st July, 1970

New South Wales - 1st August, 1972

Victoria - Not mandatory < 1969; general use/fitment mid-1972

Tasmania - March, 1970 (date unknown)

The above-mentioned dates have been supplied directly from the transport authorities in the respective states. If anyone is able to fill in the data for Qld, WA, NT it would be appreciated; no hear say info, actual info.

Saying that, Im not sure exactly how closely the above-dates were followed.

Hope this helps some.

Joseph

[Carl Beck]

Hi Alan:

Good points.. I'll try to work something out in the "Notes".... I don't want to put too much history there, yet let people know what would be expected to wind on the Registers, or what could be expected to be out there still to find..

No question that HLS30 00009 though 13 went somewhere, or were used by Nissan for EPA/MVSS Certification cars (destructive testing). Yes, Auto Shows around the world would be possible too..

FWIW,

Carl B.

Carl Beck

Clearwater,FL USA

11/69 HLS30 00020

12/69 HLS30 00587

71 240-Z

72 240-Z

72 240-Z

73 BRE Baja Z

83 280ZX Turbo

Looking for HLS30 00009