#913 On Ebay

[ncz]

Ronnie, your crazy man!! It is fun to watch. Your going to burn the tires off that trailer. If you come up I-77 stop in with your new catch! Do you want to sell the 73 you got in NC? Good Luck

[Carl Beck]

Hey Carl!

Is your numbering system a recognized published value system that you can point to as reference, or is that the "Carl Beck" numbering system? I am not intending to sound rash or arguementative by any means, but I don't necessarilly agree with the detail of your descriptions. I don't think number one cars are all that rare. I think plenty of them are driven and I would say a 90 point car would qualify. Also, a 90 point car does NOT necessarily mean bone stock and in that respect, the point / value system currently in practice by the ZCCA is far more restrictive in the stock classes than any other.

Good case in point: Charlie Osborne drove his stock entry to Syracuse last year, washed it, won a Gold Medallion, and drove it home. No question in my mind, it is / was a number 1 car. One of our active ClassicZ club members showed up in Syracuse with his wonderfully restored Z, took top honors in his modified class, qualified for the Gold round of judging, and then drove his car at Watkins Glen the next day. The Gold Cup modified 240Z from last year was driven. Another interesting thing that happend last year was that the cars scored higher indoors under artificial light than they did outdoors in bright sunlight.

You have offered a valuable benchmark for everyone's reference, but I would like to respectfully dilute the description, just a bit. Real-world judging, either ZCCA or AACA, is not that definative and highly subjective. It is also a "snapshot" in time and place.

Finally, with all due respect, you forgot to mention the #10 category. This is highly subjective, but a 10 car is one that just leaves the viewer awe struck from 6 meters. My proud example of a 10 car is the honorable Princess 27th!

Chris

Hi Chris:

You may have your definitions, and everyone else may have theirs. That is why a very diverse set of Collectors around the country and around the world usually refer to a common set of categories with their definitions. The Value Guides are just that - a published and known set of benchmarks - against which any car can be held. No question that once both parties get together, they may draw the line at slightly different points.. but at least at that point in time they would both have had something that got them close to an understanding.

I believe that the #1 cars - like Charlie's are indeed very very rare.. I'll be darned if I can find many. By the end of 1985 Nissan/Datsun had sold over a million cars in the US.. Wonder if we can find 50 of them in the same condition as Charlie's?

Yes, he drove it a few hundred miles on a dry sunny summer day.. the exception that proves the rule perhaps. Nonetheless if you inspected a car with 900 or 1,200 miles that is 26 years old - and in the same condition - I think most people would describe it as "never driven". Most Collectors that would buy such a car would never drive it to a show.. Charlie isn't really a collector so much as an enthusiast of the marque. When the car reaches the $50K plus range I believe Charlie would either sell it or quite driving it. All things with a grain of salt.

FWIW,

Carl B.

Carl Beck

Clearwater, FL USA

http://ZHome.com

[Carl Beck]

....snipped......

I too agree that the Zcar is a bargain no matter what condition. Even if a #1 car sold for 50k, that is a bargain compared to #1 Porsches, Ferrari's, and the list goes on. I cannot believe how much money muscle cars are going for these days. It seems like the whole collector car market is booming because cars are going up in value in almost every sector. It is good for the people who own these cars, and bad for the ones who don't. I wonder if 260z's and 280z's will ever get the respect they deserve. I have seen 260z's in primo shape go for pennies compared to 240's. Even 280z's go for more than 260's. What gives? I guess this is another subject entirely.

-Ben:)

Hi Ben (everyone)

I think it's important to recognize the difference between "respect" and "desire".

Most people that know much about Sports/GT's respect the early Z Cars. However most of the fanatic price escalation in both the value of the Datsun 240-Z and Muscle Cars is driven by "desire". If someone with the money to spend, want's a specific car of any kind - nothing else will satisfy that Desire for them, so if they have the money... they'll spend it.

As fewer and fewer of the items of their desire come on the market, and more buyers decide it's time to fulfill their burning Desire.. prices start to climb into the level of the ridiculous.

Just didn't want to confuse "R E S P E C T" with market value. In the Classic, Collector and Special Interest car markets - value is all about "the people that have the money" satisifing their.. "DESIRE".

FWIW,

Carl B.

Carl Beck

Clearwater,FL USA

http://ZHome.com

[Ron Carter]

Hi guys, had to chime in on this one....

Hemmings Sports and Exotics uses the number #1 through #5 definition on cars that are sold at auction on a regular basis. I still have yet to see a published 240Z sold at auction, but I am sure it wont be long.

Looking at the photos of cars that they published photos of I would say that there is a little more latitude in their numbering definition, but that is my opinion.

To me I look at the collectability of a car based on its history. Race cars to me have the most colorful history and an original, well documented race car will fetch very large numbers at auction because they are very rare.

But at car shows, race cars are frequently lumped into a "Modified Class" with every other street modified car. I would consider taking my Z to a ZCCA event if I thought it was eligible for a Gold Medallion, or gold cup award...It seems odd that the car show crowd snubs the race car crowd, at most shows there is not even a class for race cars.

Of the many shows that I am aware of there are two that support the race car group in Southern California. The Japanese Classic Car Show, held in Long Beach and the Julian Classic Motoring Show, held in Julian California, which features race cars. www.julianclassic.com. And I think that is too bad...

Carl I think that you are about to experience the same issues when you get your BRE Z out to the various Z shows...

[26th-Z]

Carl,

Guidelines are not benchmarks. They are guidelines. We can certainly use the guides to keep us in the same conversation, but they are not standards, levels, criterion, points of reference or any thing other than vaguely defined subjective categories which may or may not apply to the value of the day. Lets not confuse the issue, please.

Chris

[hls30.com]

My point exactly!

Will

[Carl Beck]

Carl,

Guidelines are not benchmarks. They are guidelines. We can certainly use the guides to keep us in the same conversation, but they are not standards, levels, criterion, points of reference or any thing other than vaguely defined subjective categories which may or may not apply to the value of the day. Lets not confuse the issue, please.

Chris

Hi Chris:

I'm not sure what "issue" you refer too.

No guidelines are not benchmarks. The values given in the various publications are the Guidelines.... ie "Value Guide"

The Kruse Set of Numbered Condition Categories are the benchmarks.

Bench mark: 1) a mark on a permanent object indicating elevation and serving as a reference in topographical surveys and tidal observations. 2) benchmark a; a point of reference from which measurements may be made b; something that serves as a standard by which others may be measured.

I'd say that that the Kruse condition categories are widely used as a common point of reference - within which most collector cars can be placed, and that most car collectors are aware of.

As for them being subjective categories vaguely defined - they may be. However they are published for every one to read, have been for years and years - and one of the most broadly used.

Nothing in this area is "absolute"... the categories are ordinal in nature within the collector car community.... not ratio. Just a standard set of definitions that everyone can use - without everyone making up their own or redefining terms.

FWIW,

Carl

[lonetreesteve]

I certainly respect both of your opinions Carl and Chris. All I can say is that in just the past 2 years since my son and I purchased our two 240Zs, the overall values of all 1 thru 5 cars have increased nicely and that is a very good thing for all of us!