European Z sales

[Sean Dezart]

Can anyone help me with more details regarding European Z sales please ?

Primarily the 240Z but I'm looking for figures on all 260Zs, 2 seaters and 2+2s ?

Any specific information for France would be VERY welcome !

In the absence of any figures, I'm stumped because the figures I've seen for the JDM and export markets and take away those sold in the US don't add up !

[Virto]

Visit zhome.com and click "Production Figures" on the left hand side. It'll give you the most accurate information available pretty much anywhere.

EDIT: Apparently these figures are incorrect...but I haven't seen any others online. I have a book at work that might have the info, I'll take a look tomorrow.

[Carl Beck]

Caution - long Post related to published numbers follows.. if your not at all interested.stop here.

Hello Zedrally:

Sorry to see that your original Post was deleted... I thought it presented an opportunity to discuss the numbers.. not just on Z Home but everywhere.

I would have to respectfully disagree with your characterization of the figures presented on the Z Car Home Page as "known to be totally wrong".

The information as published on the Z Car Home Page is presented with it's source clearly defined, the caution to the readers that reported sales figures should not be confused with production figures reported elsewhere etc.

Nissan in other places gives us annual production and annual export numbers.. here's a scan of a page out of the book "Fairlady Z Story, Datsun SP/SR & Z written by Mr. K and Mr. Matsuo for example. (see attached).

Kats tells me that these numbers are commonly used in Japan. The first column on the Left is units produced, the second column is cumulative totals. The third column (third with numbers) is units exported and the fourth column is cumulative totals of exports.

When we compare these to the figures in the 280Z Book - we have to keep in mind several things, and take them into account - in order to attempt to reconcile the various reports.

1. Units Exported are most likely counted as they leave the factory intended to be exported - but if you compare that to US reports of units imported... you have to keep in mind that on any given month.. there are units in transport (on the 6 of 7 ships coming to North America with 1200 to 1900 units each). So month for month the number may or may not match perfectly between Japan and North America. But over a period of time... the cumulative totals start to line up pretty well, if your interested in Macro data and not too worried about Micro data.

2. We sometimes have to figure out just what is being reported - Sales or Production? By Sales by Calendar Year or Sales by Fiscal Year?... shift reported Sales or Production a few months.. to account for the difference between Fiscal to Calendar year .. and the picture sometimes starts to look a little more clear.

3. Yes, given certain Corporate Goals for production or sales.. a few units might be held from one month to the next, if the quota was meet for the month.. People in corporations do fudge the figures a bit month to month... and sometime they shift numbers pushing things into the next year from Dec. to Jan.

Then when we look at VIN's and Production Dates on the cars themselves they too line up in a reasonable fashion. I don't believe anything is perfect, even the reports done to meet specific legal requirements of the various Countries are complied by humans.

All that said - lets look at the numbers:

The 280ZX Book shows a total exports in 1970 as 17, 740

The Fairlady Z book shows total exports in 1970 as 17, 008

(minus 732)

The 280ZX Book shows a total exports in 71 as 38, 371

The Fairlady Z book shows total exports in 1970 as 40,210

(plus 1839)

The 280ZX Book shows a total export in 72 as 58, 053

The Fairlady Z book shows total exports in 72 as 60, 025

(plus 1972)

The 280ZX Book shows a total export in 73 as 50,452

The Fairlady Z book shows total exports in 73 51,332

(plus 880)

280ZX Book shows cumulative total exported 70-73 164,616

So Japan reported cumulative total exported 70-73 168,584

(plus 3,968)

Is it possible that the 3968 units were on some of Nissan's Car Carriers, exported from Japan but not yet received and counted as imports.. 7 ships that carried between 1200 and 1900 units each...

Recognizing that some 1974 Model Year 260-Z are counted in the 73 Calendar Year production.. we'd have to back them out if we wanted to see only 240-Z production.

Then the highest VIN we have found so far for a Left Hand Drive Datsun 240-Z is HLS30 172767 originally sold in Switzerland. First we subtract about 20K units because Nissan skipped about 20K numbers when they restarted the chassis serial number for the HLS30 -1973 Model Year cars at HLS30 120xxx. That gives us about 152,767 units... Then we add the 260Z's produced between 07/73 and 12/73. Based on the VIN's found... RLS30 00001 to RLS30 08944.. So that's 161, 711. Add the HS30's 5203.. and your at 166,914...

Is it possible we still have a few thousand in-transit?

The person that started this thread was looking for general information, I seriously doubt that he nor most people expect such broad based information, gathered from 30+ years ago - to be proven in a court of law to be 100% accurate. For that was never the intention of Nissan Motors Ltd. nor Nissan Motors USA in publishing these numbers in first place. Nor is are the numbers on the Z Car Home Page presented as absolute FACT 100% Proven. But I would suggest that to most reasonable people, slight differences in reported numbers does not render them ... totally wrong.

As far as I can find - the book published by Nissan Motors in 1978 contains the best available answer to Sean Dezert's original request, because it is the only source of that information we've been able to find to date and it seems to be fairly accurate.

Everyone can mix/match the numbers and think about ways to account for missing units etc. in order the reconcile them all... Nonetheless, the numbers and points of export should give a least a feel for the overall picture of what went where.

FWIW,

Carl B.

Carl Beck

Clearwater, FL USA

http://ZHome.com

[Carl Beck]

Can anyone help me with more details regarding European Z sales please ?

Primarily the 240Z but I'm looking for figures on all 260Zs, 2 seaters and 2+2s ?

Any specific information for France would be VERY welcome !

In the absence of any figures, I'm stumped because the figures I've seen for the JDM and export markets and take away those sold in the US don't add up !

Hi Sean:

If you are looking for numbers that will cross-foot and balance, I seriously doubt you'll find them from Nissan or any other company for that matter. Most numbers reported were more for informational purposes, than those we would expect for corporate accounting for funds.

However if your interested, in trying to reconcile various reported numbers and look for clues as to what may account for some differences - well then it can be fun and informative. See my earlier Post re Numbers.. but I doubt that we will ever get them all add up perfectly..

One thing that might help us look at Exports to Europe and or France would be a list of Authorized Datsun Dealers in the various Countries in 1970. Maybe we can fill in a few blanks if we knew which Countries had any Datsun Dealers by 1970.

Because most Countries in Europe didn't drop the import tariffs established after WW-II until just a few years ago, it was very difficult for the Japanese Automobile Manufacturers to establish much of a market share there. One of Mr. Goshn's goals for Nissan's recovery and growth was to greatly expand sales in Europe.

I believe that Australia was a bit more open to imports, but I don't believe that they had very many Datsun Dealers by 1970. Nissan seems to have sent a few cars to Central and South America as well, but we can't find much information about them either.

Some time ago, I was trying to help a person at a Dealership in France that was attempting to restore a 240-Z. I don't know if I can find him again but will try. He may have done some research on the subject via Nissan.

FWIW,

Carl B.

Carl Beck

Clearwater, FL USA

http://ZHome.com

[HS30-H]

I would have to respectfully disagree with your characterization of the figures presented on the Z Car Home Page as "known to be totally wrong".

The information as published on the Z Car Home Page is presented with it's source clearly defined, the caution to the readers that reported sales figures should not be confused with production figures reported elsewhere etc.

The page heading on zhome.com reads: "Z Car Production and Sales Reports".

However, when I look at the table and scan across to the column headed "others" ( this includes Japan I presume??? ) I see that the figure quoted for 1969 is "0", and the figure quoted for 1970 is "3".

In my garage I have a Fairlady Z-L which was sold to the original owner ( in Japan ) in September 1970. I have the original sales receipt. The body number of this car 'S30-03761', so how does it relate to the figure of "3" on the published table?

First of all, I would respectfully suggest that the page heading at zhome.com is completely misleading. If it does not accurately include the Japanese market models then it cannot be titled "Z Car Production and Sales Reports".

Secondly, if it does not include the Japanese market models, then how can we trust the quoted figures for RHD Export market cars? 'HS30' VIN-prefixed models were sold in Japan from late 1971 onwards - so if no clear definition of the inclusion or exclusion of these models in the tables is made, how can they be trusted? I remind you of the word "production" used in the page title.

Nissan in other places gives us annual production and annual export numbers.. here's a scan of a page out of the book "Fairlady Z Story, Datsun SP/SR & Z written by Mr. K and Mr. Matsuo for example. (see attached).

I see no attachment. I have the book, so I know what tables you are referring to - but I don't think everybody else here does.

EDIT: OK - you edited your post and attached the scan. Thank you.

Nor is are the numbers on the Z Car Home Page presented as absolute FACT 100% Proven. But I would suggest that to most reasonable people, slight differences in reported numbers does not render them ... totally wrong.

I must not be a "reasonable" person then. I'm troubled by the difference between 3 and 3761 for a start. It doesn't seem "slight" to me.....

I see no caveats or caution notices regarding the information on production and sales presented at zhome.com. In my opinion, the figures are flawed and yet there is no acknowledgement that this might be the case. This is misleading. Changing the title of the page might be a good start.

Alan T.

[Sean Dezart]

Just looking across at Zhome: is this true ?

The HS30 series cars (right hand drive models) started production in Jan. of 1970, and were given a separate chassis serial number series. While there seems to be some wide spread misunderstanding related to the year of manufacture of these cars, (which is not helped by Nissans own publications, which give broad ranges within which certain series of cars were produced). There is sufficient evidence to bear this out.

I assume that the figures given are export figures as Japan doesn't appear ? And that others are made up of HS and HLS Zs ?

[HS30-H]

Quoted from zhome.com:

"The HS30 series cars (right hand drive models) started production in Jan. of 1970, and were given a separate chassis serial number series. While there seems to be some wide spread misunderstanding related to the year of manufacture of these cars, (which is not helped by Nissans own publications, which give broad ranges within which certain series of cars were produced). There is sufficient evidence to bear this out." End quote.

"Started production" might mean one thing to one person, and one thing to another. Here's some evidence of Nissan's take on the matter:

[Carl Beck]

The page heading on zhome.com reads: "Z Car Production and Sales Reports".

However, ....

Alan T.

Good feedback Alan - try it now.

thanks,

Carl B.

[Carl Beck]

Just looking across at Zhome: is this true ?

The HS30 series cars (right hand drive models) started production in Jan. of 1970, and were given a separate chassis serial number series. While there seems to be some wide spread misunderstanding related to the year of manufacture of these cars, (which is not helped by Nissans own publications, which give broad ranges within which certain series of cars were produced). There is sufficient evidence to bear this out.

Hi Sean:

I believe it is. The previous owner (I believe he has sold it??) of HS30 00004 saw the car come into Australia , and went to look it over at the Dealership about mid year 1970, and he agrees that it was most likely produced in Jan or Feb of 1970.

It is certainly possible that HS30 00003 was produced in 69 - but the point was that for several years in Autralia we'd see 240-Z's advertized for sale as being 1969 production year cars. That was based on the reports that the first 500 240-Z's were produced in 69. The fact turned out to be that the first 542 or 543 Left Hand Drive 240-Z's were produced in 69. So we'd see HS30 cars with VIN's of over 00400 being presented as 69 production cars.

Yes, the HS and HLS series have different chassis serial number sequences. However Alan tells us that the Export and JDM 240-Z's share space along a common sequence (meaning they are intermixed at different intervals).

I assume that the figures given are export figures as Japan doesn't appear ? And that others are made up of HS and HLS Zs ?

Correct - Export figures. I have now added the Produced vs Exported chart.

Yes the "Other" column is made up of export cars sent to Other places not specified

FWIW,

Carl B.

[HS30-H]

Hi Carl,

OK - adding the table of Export and Production quantities from the MIKI Press book ( the original source was Nissan's Press Department ) to that page on zhome.com is an improvement of sorts ( good effort ) - but I still think the table above it is misleading when compared to the page title.

As we know, the table of figures from the "Datsun 280ZX" book DOES NOT appear to include production or sales figures for Japanese domestic market models ( at least not for 1969, 1970 and 1971 ).

Should such a list be sitting underneath a page title heading of "Z Car Production and Sales Reports"? I think it should be made clear that it includes ( or at least it appears that way ) only Export vehicles. That's not the whole story is it?

Do you see where I'm coming from? Japanese domestic model S30-S, S30, PS30, PS30-SB, HS30-S, HS30, HS30-H, GS30 and etc etc etc are all 'Z' cars too.

I think a website called "zhome" should have space for the whole Z family. That's what homes are for, no?

Alan T.

[Carl Beck]

....snipped...

I assume that the figures given are export figures as Japan doesn't appear ? And that others are made up of HS and HLS Zs ?

Hi Sean:

"Others" is made up of West Germany, Holland and France

<pre>

U.S.A. West Germany Holland France

1970 16,215 0 3 0

1971 33,684 0 7 82

1972 52,628 0 92 402

1973 45,588 112 130 188

1974 40,172 0 1 0

2+2 9,499 40 39 74

1975 40,216 22 0 1

2+2 11,594 372 21 100

1976 45,766 0 7 0

2+2 13,792 417 47 184

1977 54,594 1 61 1

2+2 16,065 519 52 71

</pre>

FWIW,

Carl B.

Carl Beck

Clearwater, FL USA

http:ZHome.com

[datsun-sports]

what about Norway?

i think, and i will check later. that Nissan norway imported and sold 37 240z from 71 til 73.

and in my garage i have 3 1974 260z 2 seaters which have been in line on production.

i also have a 1972 FAIRLADY Z, it was bought new in tokyo by a Norwegian busness man, and did bring it home to norway after.

now its restored and iam finishing the last things this winter.

i will check and see waht i can find out from the papers i have from nissan norway.

best regards

jan