MSA rebuilt head - any experiences?

[Arne]

Been doing some shopping around for head machine work, and I've found the prices are much higher than I had figured on for a simple stock E88 rebuild. I'm not looking for a performance-built head, just good quality work.

I've got quotes of $600 to $900 for what I need to have done. Which is to have the head lightly surfaced, new guides installed, the t-stat housing opening welded and surfaced, a couple of new valves, maybe new springs and the normal valve grinding and lapping. No port work, pretty basic stuff.

So here's the dilemma - MSA will sell me a rebuilt E88 for about $450 exchange. They guarantee that it will not have been milled too far, will have steel intake seats, all new guides, springs and valves as required, and all water passages will be good or repaired. The cam will be a re-grind, which doesn't excite me, but I can probably work around that.

So has anyone bought one of their rebuilt heads? Any reviews? Are they good enough for a stock daily driver-type engine?

[Arne]

Update - I need to confirm that price from MSA. I talked to them on the phone today, and when I asked the price (since I didn't have my catalog at work), I could have sworn he told me $449 exchange. Now that I am home, I see that catalog says $559.95 exchange. Gotta call back, I guess.

[Arne]

More details - I called MSA back today to confirm the price and ask a few more questions. First, they again quoted me a price of $449.95 exchange, which is a bit less than the machine work alone here locally, let alone including parts. (I got the phone rep's name this time, in case I do this and the price goes up.) It would have all new guides, and steel seats added for the intake valves. Valves and springs would be replaced as needed. Any damage to water passages would be repaired. The cam would be a regrind and the rocker arms would be refaced, not new. (No surprise considering the price.) The cam would be externally oiled, but it sounds like it probably would not come with an oil rail, I'd either need to use my existing one, or (more likely) buy a new one. It has a 90 day warranty.

Since there have been a fair number of views but no replies, I'm guessing no one has bought one of these from MSA, and if I do so I'll be the pioneer. I'm still a bit wary because of the price, but it is tempting.

[rdefabri]

Arne,

Assuming originality is not an issue? Obviously, an exchange makes numbers "not match", which is a concern for me.

I am actually gonna need a full rebuild as I see I have some slight oil leaks near the head gasket/block. While the engine runs well, I figure it's best to do the "full monty" (not like the movie)....

Otherwise, I can't see anything wrong with MSA fundamentally, although I might consider a "specialist" (Rebello, Cannady) rather than a "generalist" like MSA.

[Arne]

Originality isn't an issue in my case, my car's original engine was gone long before I bought it. But even so, there are no serial numbers on a head, so as long as the casting number is the same, I don't see how anyone could ever tell.

The reason I'm looking for non-local options is to find someone who is familiar with the Datsun heads. I'd prefer not to have some guy who does small block Chevy heads all day learn on my head. And the Z specialist shops that do great work are geared to performance jobs, not to stock daily driver jobs. Therefore their prices are performance-rated as well.

Not that I'm complaining about the price for the job they do, but they do a whole lot more than I need, or need to pay for. When they start talking about things like five-angle seats and such - that's great, if you need that. I don't.

So that was why I started considering MSA, as a cost effective place where - presumably - they know what they are doing with an L-series head.

[madkaw]

Arne,

I think your right that you can overkill.That's where I am at and after reading endless posts from all different z sites, stock z stuff is pretty tuff. Reground cams have as many pro's and cons as new. The original metallargy is hard to beat and refaced rockers seem to be fine. I would ASSume ,like you,that MSA knows a little about these heads. My machinist, who has very little knowledge of these cars has had my head for a year-granted I told him it was alright to put me on the back burner-he is taking his time because every engine has it pecularalities.

I also decided to go whole hog and it's costing me 1500$. That's all new internals ,valves , springs,cam,rockers,guides,lash pads and port and polish.I say someone who wants stock, MSA would be a good deal.

[xray]

Arne,

Assuming originality is not an issue? Obviously, an exchange makes numbers "not match", which is a concern for me.

I am actually gonna need a full rebuild as I see I have some slight oil leaks near the head gasket/block. While the engine runs well, I figure it's best to do the "full monty" (not like the movie)....

Otherwise, I can't see anything wrong with MSA fundamentally, although I might consider a "specialist" (Rebello, Cannady) rather than a "generalist" like MSA.

Hmmm...identifier is only on the engine block, not the head. There's no identifying mark on a Z head that would make it particular to your unique vehicle. If you stick with E31, E88, N42 etc. that is appropriate for your block and year you'll be fine. Of course, the different variations of E88s are known only to those privy to the combustion chambers, but I doubt a judge will pull heads to verify....

I have priced head work here in the RDU triangle, and 4-600 is in the ballpark. I wouldn't cheap out on that stuff...quality work is worth the price.

$0.02,

Steve

[rdefabri]

Actually, I knew that (see one of my first posts on this board)....I suppose I get caught up in having an original piece, but alas that's being idealistic. I am actually bummed my car doesn't have the original cam grind, but practically no one could tell by looking at it and few could probably tell when it's running - that's kind of the the thrust of my comment.

Personally, I could give a hoot about 5 angle seats and extrude hone too, that's BS to me - but as a Marketing guy, that's also business.

Under that guise I can't see why you wouldn't go with MSA...they've been around quite a while, so there should be some good references.

[Arne]

Personally, I could give a hoot about 5 angle seats and extrude hone too, that's BS to me - but as a Marketing guy, that's also business.

No, the five-angle seats and Extrudehone is not just marketing, it does make a difference - that's why racers have it done. But it's not necessary for the type of engine I'm planning.

Under that guise I can't see why you wouldn't go with MSA...they've been around quite a while, so there should be some good references.

References are exactly what I have been fishing for. But it appears no one on this board has bought one. I may be the first. But it won't be for a while - the heads have a 90 day warranty, so I won't buy one until I've got the bottom end done and ready to put in the car. Don't want the warranty to run out while I'm still finishing the engine.

[Walter Moore]

I looked into MSA rebuilds, but didn't do it for two reasons:

1. My Z came with an E31 head, which MSA will do on an exchange basis only.

(I am sure it would have been fine, but the wording in the catalog worried me.)

2. You have to pay shipping both ways. A cylinder head is heavy, and Indiana is a long way from california.

But Oregon is a lot closer to California, so the shipping is less of an issue.

I ended up by random chance finding a machine shop that specializes in aluminum heads. The first shop I took the whole engine to wouldn't touch the head because it was pitted, and they didn't know how to weld aluminum. (He was a SB Chevy guy. Nothing wrong with that, except the Z isn't a Chevy.)

One hint on finding a non-performance shop that can do the work, is that the shop that I ended up using was full of motorcycle heads in process.

Of course, I had already bought all the parts that he needed. I bought them a little at a time over a year or so while I was looking for a shop to do the work.

Even with me providing all the parts, and telling him there was no hurry, it was over $300 for just the labor.

(My cylinder head still had the original brass intake seats, which have to be cut out.)

I guess you are the test case, let us all know how it turns out...

[Arne]

Well, I haven't quite given up on having it done locally. If I could find someone who sounds like they know what they are doing, and could do it for $300 or so, I'd be happy. Because it's not that big a deal, really. My E88 already has steel seats, so all I need is guides replaced, the t-stat opening welded and surfaced, and a good valve job. I think it's likely that my head is not warped, as the cam spins freely when the head is on the bench. So how difficult can it be?

[azcarbum]

Arne,

This is Brian (Cottage Grove)... Give me a call and I can give you some other options to decrease the money it will require you to spend.

www.azcarbum@msn.com

B.