NOS Body shell?

[HS30-H]

You have shown me that example, however that is not what I am talking about. It has a VIN therefore it is not a "white" body shell.

OK, I understand.

That is why I am so taken with the photo of the floor tub. I can not imagine the extent of damage that would cause this assembly to be used as a replacement part. A chassis would have to be literally cut in thirds to install this sub-assembly and I think the photograph is of a manufacturing component; intended for chassis construction rather than replacement part.

My thoughts when I originally saw it were that it might very well have been intended as a 'donor' for some of its sections ( ie - never expressly intended to be used complete and 'as is' ) and was possibly supplied as the most logical bite-sized chunk of body to include that part which was needed. I too can't imagine the complexity in trying to attach it to an existing car; surely a damaged car that needed such a part would be beyond economical repair?

Even as customized as they were, the rally cars had VINs. How about all the 432-Rs? The school cars. The pace cars? Did they all have VINs?

Whoah, careful there. The earliest of the Works rally cars were built up from a mixture of dedicated pressings and standard production parts. That's hardly what I'd call "customized". I'd call that built-to-purpose. Those cars had VIN / body serial numbers because they had to have them in order to compete legally.

The 432-Rs that were sold to the general public also had VIN / body serial numbers - despite the fact that they had completely different body panel pressings to even their closest relatives the 432s. Just dwell for a moment on the thought that both the PZ and the PZR shared the 'PS30' VIN prefix and body serial number sequence, but that their bare bodyshells were made from hugely different pressings, and it might help to bring a little bit of perspective about what the presence if a factory-stamped number in the firewall actually represented........

The factory circuit race cars, Nissan Racing School cars and Japanese 'pace' cars? Most of them did have VIN / serial numbers - but I'm told ( and yes, this is anecdotal ) there were some that did not, and some that were stamped much later in life for reasons of expediency and rule compliance. Thorny subject.

Alan T.

[26th-Z]

Thanks Alan, for a very thorough response. Your explanation of my use of the word customize is the same. I was refering to the use of thinner guage sheet steel as well as special tabs and reinforcement plate in the construction of the unibody chassis. The two points I want to reinforce are that Nissan was not in the procedure to make a shell without a VIN at that time and that the unibody chassis consruction was not a fully automated construction process, but rather component assembled using hand techniques. I guess my second point is a little off topic. However, I am not entirely certain of my first assertion. We suspect that at least ten S130 chassis were constructed without VIN, but I believe that policy reflects a different management period at Nissan. Probably a far more advanced - automated - manufacturing process than the S30 as well. Considering the development of manufacuring technique at the time, I would suggest that the VIN stamped in the firewall was as much a manufacturing identity as it was a registration identity and thus my assertion that there is no such thing as an "NOS station wagon body shell" and that the S30 "white body" conversation is a bar-room myth.

Standing by to be proven wrong,

Chris

[Carl Beck]

Sent twice.. oops..

[Carl Beck]

Alan,

You have shown me that example, however that is not what I am talking about. It has a VIN therefore it is not a "white" body shell.

Hi Chris/Alan:

Alan ask me about white bodies several years ago. Last year Andy F. ask me about RLS30 00017. At first there was some confusion about it being "HLS30 00017".. which of course it could not have been, as we know John has that one.... RLS30 00017 makes sense..

We do know that the OMS Pace Car for 74 was RLS30 00020 and it was prepared for Pace Car duties at BRE. I'll see if I can get some more info related to the build of that Pace Car..

The advantage was not having to strip a production car of it's paint and sound proofing, prior to seam welding, plus being far less expensive from Nissan's perspective would make it worth while to ship a bare body rather than a penny car. So I would say a "white body" is a "white body" regardless if it had a VIN or not. It was really it's state of completion and purpose that mattered - (yes/no?) Perhaps Nissan didn't stamp VIN's into the Second Gen. cars... based on some bad experience from the First..

I am talking about the VIN.

"THE VIN" per Federal and most State Laws is the one that can be seen through the windshield. All the other matching numbers stamped in the sheetmetal or printed on stickers.... are simply "references to" the car they originally came on.

Perfectly legal to take any parts or components off a Junk Yard Car - and put them on your car... (just keep the bill of sale for them to be safe).

Your example is RLS30-000017 and could never be used as a substitution for another VIN. Here in the States, I believe, Federal law would prohibit a full chassis substitution.

No Federal law against it - the Federal law only makes swapping VIN's to defraud - conducted across State Lines illegal. Federal laws do not prevent the private repair of a privately owned car, using the proper used parts. (emission laws still apply etc.).

Florida allows full chassis swaps on unibody cars - and has a written procedure that outlines what you have to do - in effect a Florida Law Enforcement Officer (State, County, City) has to be present when you remove the Dash VIN from the car - and he has to be present when you put it back in .... Florida only uses the VIN numbers stamped into the body - to identify stolen cars or parts from stolen cars. It's required to be there when the car is produced - by Federal Law, to reduce auto theft.

When I ask the DMV about swapping the metal stampings on uni-bodies - the response was that there was no law against it - Putting a false ID on the car to cover a stolen car would be against the law... ie with intent to cover a theft or to defraud in some manor. The Florida Trooper at the DMV did mention that Florida Law does outline how commercial body shops can, or must, repair your car... but nothing to say they can't use junk yard parts with your permission... just that they have to be installed per the Factory Recommended Procedures...

May be other tricky questions of law there somewhere... for which some set of circumstances could be outlined - - - but if your doing everything on the up and up it shouldn't be a problem.

That is why I am so taken with the photo of the floor tub. I can not imagine the extent of damage that would cause this assembly to be used as a replacement part. A chassis would have to be literally cut in thirds to install this sub-assembly

I don't see why it would be cut in thirds... the rocker panels hold the structures together along with the roof. If you cut the old floorboards out - to replace them with after-market stamping... it would seen to be far less work to just cut the entire panel out....total length of cutting/welding would be less wouldn't it? Fitting the aftermarket parts in requires welding them back to what's left of center console metal... that what?... 48 inches front to rear on both side... the remaining center console is only about 24" wide at the front and rear - plus the joining parts already had a mating lip... Full floor pan replacements in the old VW Bugs are very common...(because the parts are still available from aftermarket suppliers)

and I think the photograph is of a manufacturing component; intended for chassis construction rather than replacement part.

The Part you show - is a standard Nissan Replacement Part - listed in the Parts Catalogs..and rusted floorboards have always been a problem with the first generation Z's...

ASSY-FLOOR FRONT

74300-E4600.......thru 74300-N3350

I am begining to believe that Nissan did not make a 'blank' S30.

Sounds quite possible - but then, no reason to think that a "white body" could not have a VIN.. just because the Second Generation white bodies did not. Alan's observations about the condition of the wiring harness loops not being bent - etc are significant... Wonder how much seam sealer was in that car???

FWIW,

Carl

[HS30-H]

"THE VIN" per Federal and most State Laws is the one that can be seen through the windshield. All the other matching numbers stamped in the sheetmetal or printed on stickers.... are simply "references to" the car they originally came on.

That sounds completely upside down to me. Surely the single thing that is 'set in stone' so to speak is the prefix and serial number stamped into the firewall sheetmetal at time of manufacture. I'd say that all the other tags, labels and paperwork are "references to" that - rather than the other way around?

And it might be the legal situation in the USA that the dash tag is the reference point, but it certainly isn't elsewhere. In fact, the dash-mounted "VIN / body serial number" tag wasn't even present on Domestic and RHD Export cars. I don't believe it was present on all the non-USA / Canada LHD Export cars either. It is quite clear what the factory position would be.

Certainly here in the UK ( and I know for sure in Japan too ) the authorities are mainly interested in the number that is stamped into the body sheetmetal. After all, if I were to take the metal tags off of - for example - HS30-00001, and attach them to the body of HS30-00999, it does NOT mean that I now have HS30-00001, does it?

I'm tempted to stop using the term "VIN". I'd much rather use the Japanese term "Shatai Bango" for when we discuss the combination of model prefixes and body serial numbers.

Alan's observations about the condition of the wiring harness loops not being bent - etc are significant... Wonder how much seam sealer was in that car???

Andy will probably report here on the body in due course. He has only recently taken delivery of it. I'd like to see pictures of it in natural light, and a little cleaned up.

My personal impressions of it ( in a dark and dusty barn, with many used parts jumbled around, inside and on top of it ) were that it had all the normal factory-applied seam-sealer, tabs and fixtures present on a standard production car - and looked as though it had gone through the normal factory production processes UNTIL just before being painted in a colour coat. I would say it was likely plucked off the standard production line at that point and diverted with the express intention of being sent as it stood to NMC USA ( for them to distribute to BRE or Bob Sharp as they saw fit ).

I half expected to see something special or 'built-to-purpose' because of the alleged BSR connection ( along the lines of the Works bodyshells ) but it did not show any features or modifications that I recognised as out of the ordinary. In retrospect this should not be a surprise, as BSR and BRE were doing their own thing with the cars / 'shells anyway.

Alan T.

[NZeder]

Here in NZ we don't have a VIN ID on the dash of any S30 or Datsun or any car that I know of for that matter. It is the Stamped Chassis number (ie the number on the firewall, or Frame number if a motorbike) that is the key for licensing a vehicle for the road.

[sakijo]

Although different countries have different requirements in regard to VIN plates, I agree with Alan that the "true" or "official" VIN is the one stamped onto the body. I say "stamped onto the body" because my 1971 Skyline has the number stamped into the rocker panel inside the passenger compartment and our 1999 Harrier (Lexus RX 300) has the number stamped to the floor bracing under the driver's seat. Those are the numbers that they check against the registration papers when you go to register the car. The only other place where the VIN appears is under the hood on a small aluminum plate that has other information like engine displacement, etc.

[ZHeadV8]

Hi Folks,

It seems RLS30 - 00017 has caused quite a furore and started an interesting debate.

This shell as previously mentioned by Alan was originally sold by Nissan to BSR (They did not donate shells to racing teams becuase legally that conferred some degree of responsibility onto Nissan, instead they sold them for a token gesture to absolve themselves of any come back). I am unsure who bought it from BSR and who bought it on the East Coast but Geoff Jackson here in the UK tells me that he bought it from someone in New York.

Geoff duly imported the shell into the UK as per Alan's explanation and after many many years of it sitting in a barn kindly agreed to sell it to me.

Number 17 has had a right hand conversion but done in an easily reversible way, it is my intention to put it back to left hand drive, restoring it to how it should be, as befits such a low serial numbered shell with a little provenance.

It is currently covered with light surface rust that will come off totally as part of the eventual build.

Penny shell ?, White shell ?, Not sure but then those are merely semantics and terminology, the reality is that this is a NOS body shell, I suspect pulled directly from the production line for the BSR team. It has all of the factory applied sealer, unbent wire harness tags and has never had a panel hung on it. Although a 260 shell, it is to all intents and purposes the same as a 240.

My main project is a seriously engineered V8 240Z so time and funds do not allow me to build two cars in parallel, however, my longer term intention is to build a BSR replica to do justice to the shell. I have contacted one current East Coast owner of a BSR car who was not prepared to discuss the topic let alone help with guidance on a replica project and have managed to track down the man who restored Brad Friselle's car. The body kit for Brad's car is available to me, however the one I would like is the same as I believe Dr Alan Robbins has on his car.

My V8 has had a total ground up bare metal restoration, has been acid dipped and is now ready for zinc electroplating - I intend to acid dip and zinc plate number 17 aswell.

Any help sourcing a seriously top quality BSR body kit would be greatly appreciated, particularly if anyone knows where the original moulds are. Alan is kindly helping me spec up and procure parts for a modern 3.1 stroker engine with individual throttle bodies to go into the finished car.

The shell is an hour and half's drive from my house so if anyone has any specific questions please fire away and I will endeavour to get the answers for you.

[daddz]

There is one right here in the UK. I'm sure I told you about this before?

It is a very early 'RLS30' body ( RLS30-000017 in fact ) that was originally supplied by Nissan to Bob Sharp Racing as a 'spare' bodyshell - eventually to be built up into a race car should it ever be needed.

I'm guessing that BSR possibly received either another of these 'White Bodies' and/or a couple of complete early RLS30s too ( around the time that the first RLS30s were being produced ).

Anyway, this body was never actually built up into a running car and was eventually sold off to a private individual who also never used it. It seems to have passed through at least one other pair of hands on the east coast of the USA before my friend Geoff Jackson of Fourways Engineering purchased it and brought it over to the UK. Once in the UK it was partially converted to an RHD configuration and given a couple of coats of primer, but then put back into storage. It stayed in storage for some years, but earlier this year was dis-interred and sold. It may well finally be built up into a complete car after all these years.

What I found interesting about this bodyshell was that it was supplied WITH A COMPLETE VIN AND BODY SERIAL NUMBER. We could get our teeth into another nice 'philosophical' discussion about what actually constitutes a car and what actually constitutes an identity for that car. To my mind, this bodyshell is 'RLS30-000017' - and hanging a set of panels and a full set of mechanicals on it doesn't really change that fact all that much. It would have been included in the production records and quantities at the factory, and arguably has carried its identity all the way through its 'life' so far. That I find interesting.

My personal take on this is that RLS30-000017 was plucked from the normal production process expressly to be sent to BSR.

Now, if Nissan had supplied "replacement" ( 'White Body' / 'Body in White' ) bodyshells for the S30-series Z, surely they would have had to have 'blank' body serial numbers? If they were supplied with the intention of repairing damaged cars, but had full VIN / body serial numbers from the production line, then they would not be 'repairing' - but actually 'replacing' the original identity with a new one. That's one of the reasons why I see a factory-stamped VIN / body serial number as an 'identity' in its own right, and can't stop myself from imagining that a car's identity arguably *begins* when the VIN & body serial number combination was whacked into the firewall sheetmetal...............

Alan T.

Alan, Thanks for bringing this S30 to light. An interesting question is why Nissan haven't expressed interest in obtaining this S30 for a possible museum slot? This is reminiscent of a story some years back in 'Classic & Sports Car'? about an Mercedes Benz 300SL that was purchased in pieces by an MB employee but never assembled. I rmemeber some disucssion revolving around the topic of whether the car should ever be assembled or not. Surely one would think that the factory would want to celebrate an S30 that was 'pulled' from the assembly line and thusly singled out as 'special' by the factory even though it was probably just a random event and not one in which that serial number was identified before hand?

This brings to mind another question which is this:

What other Japanese auto manufacturer has done this previously and if so is there anything that could be learned from that situation?

Lastly, if Nissan has repeated this with any other generations besides the S30and S130 I would be curious to learn about them as well. An example might include a Z31,Z32 or Z33? If so were these bodyshells christened with a chassis i.d. number?

[daddz]

I'm tempted to stop using the term "VIN". I'd much rather use the Japanese term "Shatai Bango" for when we discuss the combination of model prefixes and body serial numbers.

Alan T.

Alan, When translated what does "Shatai Bango" become?

[daddz]

Hi Folks,

It seems RLS30 - 00017 has caused quite a furore and started an interesting debate.

This shell as previously mentioned by Alan was originally sold by Nissan to BSR (They did not donate shells to racing teams becuase legally that conferred some degree of responsibility onto Nissan, instead they sold them for a token gesture to absolve themselves of any come back). I am unsure who bought it from BSR and who bought it on the East Coast but Geoff Jackson here in the UK tells me that he bought it from someone in New York.

Geoff duly imported the shell into the UK as per Alan's explanation and after many many years of it sitting in a barn kindly agreed to sell it to me.

Number 17 has had a right hand conversion but done in an easily reversible way, it is my intention to put it back to left hand drive, restoring it to how it should be, as befits such a low serial numbered shell with a little provenance.

It is currently covered with light surface rust that will come off totally as part of the eventual build.

The shell is an hour and half's drive from my house so if anyone has any specific questions please fire away and I will endeavour to get the answers for you.

Andy,

Fascinating piece of history that you have! Just be sure to take lots of detailed photos for us as you go through the restoration/ assembly process. As I always joke with friends it is only original once.

[HS30-H]

Alan, When translated what does "Shatai Bango" become?

Bearing in mind this is an Englishman trying to explain a Japanese term to an American here ( Kats would probably be the best person to answer the question ) :nervous: :

'Sha' = Car ( quite literally derived from carriage, but the Kanji has its roots in the symbol for a wheel I believe ).

'Tai' = Body ( such as the body of a coach, carriage or other wheeled vehicle ).

'Ban go' = Number ( although the two Kanji characters need a little more explanation than that ).

So let's call it 'Car Body Number'.

Of course, the term 'Shatai Bango' in the vernacular implies inclusion of the Series and Model Type ( 'S30' / 'PS30' / 'HS30' etc etc ) as well as the actual body serial number, and also does not include the prefixes and suffixes that the factory used internally to identify the sub-model and variant more closely.

That's my 'translation' anyway.

Alan T.