Why the die off in value of the Z?

[vtdds71]

I bought my '72 Z (26K miles) in a "round-a-bout" way through e-bay in 9/04, and I will only share with my wife what I wound up paying for it! Probably some of you watched the auction with interest, as the car looked quite beautiful and impeccably maintained by its original owner. Yes, I spoke with this 83-year-old gentleman on the phone well after I bought the car -- what a neat guy, and a real enthusiast. Turned out the actual buyer got cold feet after sending in his check (actually, it would be more honest to say he is an incurable e-bay junkie who just loves playing the bidding game), and he offered to sell the car to me privately. So, we had a 3-way deal going for a month and a half until the car was finally delivered to me (the original buyer never even saw the car!).

The car turned out to be just as physically beautiful as it appeared in the many crisp digital pictures, but its mechanical condition was greatly overstated by the e-bay seller (Classic-motorsports in Clinton, NY). I suppose I was naive to think that rubber parts, fuel system, carbs, hydraulics, not to mention engine tune had actually been kept up-to-date as promised in the e-bay ad, but they were not. So, I am at last undertaking a complete revitalization of these components. Yes, I paid too much for the car because the seller lied about its true condition. No, I would never buy another car through an e-bay transaction (unless its condition were professionally evaluated first). No, I wouldn't trust Don Stanton of Classic-motorsports any further than I could throw him. Yes, I will be a happy owner of a beautiful Z once I have completed my refurbishment of its mechanicals, mainly because the body of this car is, truthfully, rock solid and rust free. I have always felt it makes much more sense to rebuild faulty mechanicals in a car with a solid body, than to buy a rust-bucket onto which some hapless fool has already hung a ton of new parts.

As to the current value of Z-cars, I have wondered, too, why the "high book" value in the NADA guide has dropped from about $18,200 in mid-'04 when I was considering this purchase, to about $12,600 now. Not good news. Could be there is just too much modern stuff available now that is fun to drive, trouble-free, easily fixed (when necessary), and easily replaceable when stolen or trashed. We live in a "disposable" society. Z-cars were made to be driven, not stored in museums. There are now lots of fun rides out there that have far fewer headaches than an old Z, and they cost around $20-30K. I love the early Z's because it was the car I wanted more than anything when I graduated from dental school in '71 (yeah, that makes me 60!), but there was a 10-month waiting list at the time, and the Navy Dental Corps wouldn't wait. I went with a brand-new funny little sedan called a BMW 2002 instead! Damn, wish I had kept that one!

Keep the good ideas coming! Denny Nelson (Jericho, VT)

[Spridal]

Wow,

Great feedback and great story from vtdds71. I am not too worried about the value of my Z since I purchased it for the fun of having one. I had one right out of High School and had to sell it to afford college. After restoring and purchasing well over 230 cars I had to uncurable itch to have another Z.

[Montezuma]

vtdds71's story rings so true as I too am in the "buyers remorse/I paid too much on ebay" club. I too bought a car that I feel I paid too much for, I must say she was very photogenic, and her previous owner was very convincing of her condition. I actually had family go and look it before buying it and still I was not impressed upon delivery. I have both body and mechanical concerns. Since the cars arrival in January, I have replaced the carbs, added an electronic ignition, new exhaust, new springs and shocks, new stereo system, new choke cable(old one did not work/the plastic on the console was broken), new tires(I saw better tires in junkyards than the ones that came with the car), new Wesco seatbelts and had to tune it up. The floor boards were "supposed" to be solid, that changed after one pothole. Now the good, 98K miles and crack free dash. I am so lucky to have a very good friend who is a mechanic and whose father lived in Japan for 18 years collecting Z car parts for all his years. Without my friends I would be crying for my lose. I could NEVER in good conscience sell my car for what I paid and for how much I have put into since buying it....I will bite the bullet and keep it until someone offers me a great price. NEVER BUY ON EBAY!!!!!!

[DougN]

Actually, I bought my car via eBay, and got a fair deal on it -- no regrets! I got over 100 detailed photos of all areas of the car, as well as lots of documentation on the history of the car, as well as spoke to the seller (as well as the guy who did the refresh on the car) several times. I also had Z-car expert from the board help me out and cast a second unbiased eye over the car (all the photos, documentation, etc) before I purchased it. And, I would purchase another car from eBay as well!

I call it a fair deal as there have been a couple of things I have had to have fixed that I did not plan on, but most of the cost I have put into it since I have bought it is for correcting minor things that look fine to 99% of people out there, but I am very anal about the car and want it to be perfect. Overall, I don't think (hope) am not to bad off in the money invested versus what I could sell if for equation.

I don't necessarily agree that the value of our cars are declining, as Hagerty seems to have no issue with a declared value policy in the $20K range (as found in a different thread here). The 240Z was also featured in their quarterly publication as a good value now with value upside potential. The NADA book value of cars always goes down over time, since most of the examples of a particular car are getting older, more miles, more worn out/run down until you get to the point that there are only a few pristine examples left in the world, when it will go back up.

With all that being said, like most others, I bought my Z because I love to drive it! Once in awhile I feel a little guilty putting miles on it (because it is a low mile car (50K), but it is so much fun to drive, I get over it quickly! :classic:

[=Resurected280=]

My opinion as to why early Z's seem to be declining in value is because (especially vs. 7-8 years ago) first of all most Z's that have been driven daily or semi-daily by a person of average automotive knowledge most likely has significant rust issues even if you cannot see them. I've been told by many body shops and people I know in the automotive industry that 1st-gen Z's had some of worst rust design EVER.

Also the current muscle car fad that has been brought on by aging baby boomers does not help us here either.

Either way I love Z cars because they are performance cars and they are not in any way a fad car. I'm sure theyll be very valuable someday but I dont think today is it. Remember also that when a car become's valuable/popular the parts prices go through the roof.

Just my 2 cents.

[a7dz]

I have not seen the value of a good clean car going down. Especially the series ones that have been either restored or kept up all along. Yes, those of us with series I cars will be the first to admit they are the most prone to rust problems.

I do believe a few of these cars were sold at inflated prices. To get the money out of mine I have just put into it will have to be through driving and ownership pride, rod runs and friendships. I do have a biased view as one who owned one of these cars when it was not cool to own a Japanese car.

Most of you would of scrapped this car I have owned for thirty plus years yet, I am putting her back on road one more time. I promise to post before and after pictures this fall as I get closer to complete. Also, have a few of the west coast guys after me to post the articles of how I did the different repairs.

Got to run the UPS driver is here with more parts.

[John Coffey]

I have a friend who buys and sells cars at the Barrett-Jackson auctions every year. He's even had a couple appear on TV and typically won't look at cars that are under 6 figures. Right now he has:

1. 1967 L89 Corvette with all options (including the knockoff aluminum turbine wheels).

2. 1957 Bel Air Chevy 283 FI - all original.

3. 1964 Ford Thunderbolt 427 Hi-Riser with a 1965 NHRA Championship to its credit.

He has a big soft spot for 240Zs and is always coming over to my shop to see what I'm currently working on. I've talked with him often about the values of these cars and why they are worth what they are worth.

The issues he brings up:

1. There are still a whole lot of 240Zs out there.

2. They are Japanese cars.

3. There were no "special" models or "performance" versions of the 240Z that would differentiate one from another (at least as sold in the US).

4. The people who grew up loving these cars are only now getting to the point in their lives where they have enough disposable income to spend on a toy.

4. There's no "Gold" standard of judging (comparable to what Mustang, Ferrari, Corvette, marques have) that can be used as a standard to measure one 240Z to another.

But the main issue is:

It costs $40K and up to resore ANY car to a presentable level. The kind of car collectors/investors who spend this kind of money regularly are going to spend it on cars that can fetch 6 figures so they can recoup their restoration costs. Regardless of a person's affection for a particular marque, spending $40K on a car that's worth $20K is a hard sell to yourself, your wife, your accoutant, etc.

My friend says that as soon as a 240Z sells PUBLICALLY for $50K, you'll see a groundswell of interest in the marque.

[RickX]

I recently sold a Black Pearl 280Z for a Kawaski racer, 72K miles, mechanically perfect, perfect interior, CD system, dealer sunroof, perfect frame with two half dollar spots of rust by Datsun on the fenders, 12 x 4" area on the pass qtr extension. All disclosed, and latter not visible.

Beat-up unmercyafully on the car, as if a Hemi Cuda convertible on E-Bay. Most E-Bayers never bid, sold as a Honda or Supra from the '80's --- driver quality. FMV was easy 5K, reserve 1K for a used E-Bay car should have = 4K... Canadian Dentist was a no show, 1st auction, paint ball con artist from NJ knocked $500.00 off the 4K, high bid. Said "Rick misrepresented the rust half dollar rust spots," his magnet said Silver dollar size. Alex was E-Bayed out, I would haved cursed him and gone to the 2nd bidder if I was there. Said 2nd place bidder, 600 miles away, was me? NY is a big state, NJ con artist is a small person.

Bad guy just scored a 6K car for $3,500.00, new paint and minor MIG work would have it close to show quality with Sikkens and new Black Pearl which is not a real pearlescent paint.

'78 Espirit next, should be triple and does not run very long with a bad fuel pump or connection.

Listed under r.states as the e-Bay seller, and a few of the Canadian E-Bayer were very professional and yet on a budget. Not so with a majority of the fellow AMerican E-Bayers, low feedback or no feedback, who bid on a very good '78 Z?

I own a 240Z which I drove to the track on Sunday's, won, and commuted to college M-F. Typical low budget, Koni's, Pirelli's, Mini-lights, and headers, maybe an R-190 4.44 along the way, and mid ratio 5 speed.

I answered any and all questions, and I'm very critical with high standards.

Z's on E-Bay is an adventure!!!!!!!!!

[sblake01]

RickX, what does that verbose gibberish have to do with this thread?

[Blue Meanie]

Worth is in the eye of the beholder. If you want something, just how bad you want it will determine how much you are willing to pay for it. These cars are love affairs for many people. I'm one of them.

Each time after I come home from driving my Z, I look at my wife and say; "that car makes me smile." My car is worth ever penny I paid for it!

[RickX]

How's market segmentation,& decline in FMV since the peak in 1978 for the non-classic Black Pearl, like your's, and 1975 for the 240 OmegaZ which is three years before your first ownership, if Alzheimers has kicked-in and left left you math impaired Stephen Blakeney?

Watch your P's and Q's with me, Stephen I don't take prisoners!!!!!!!!!!

PS

Non-running Espirit, same year will garner 300% more US GREENBACKS, which you missed entirely. All on E-Bay, if pictures are easier to follow than words?

I hope an HHR is rear wheel drive? Most Chevy's are dogs? L-78 Camaro owner, best year, little 2002 SS replaced a Black WS-6, driver, a Cobra Jet here, a SSC Saleen there. Bunch of 300ZX are daily beaters, as they run when I turn the key every time for the last decade or so.

How's that for being verbose?

Next week, buying 4 Tanks for the US ARMY and Marines in Phoenix for the Patton Museum in Fort Knox, got any Rolls Royce packs in your 500 pound capacity pick-up?

RickX

[26th-Z]

John Coffey, I liked your viewpoint and thought I would throw my thoughts into this. I have vested interest and I keep my ear to the market of early cars. I casually watch eBay and the stuff that occasionally pops up - mostly by staying tuned into this site.

The first issue I would mention is the award system and car judging standards of the ZCCA. We might argue how comparible the various systems of judging are, but a "gold" system DOES exist in America for judging Zs and top honors are for the few.

Yes, there are a lot of Zs out there and we watch them trade all the time. I think the volume of trading has risen in the last two or three years - thus the reported value (which is an average) is lower. Because more cars are trading, the range of value is wider and the junk is outpacing the gems. I have seen several early Zs trade in high twenties / low thirties. A year ago, we watched some fine Vintage Zs trade. What we have not seen publicly, private sales, come to me occasionally also. I have heard of a car trading in Japan for over six figures. I am also aware of other "special models" trading close to the six figure mark. I don't think these cars are computed in the averages. I'm not the most connected, but I hear about and see private collections all the time. There are guys out there collecting gems - large collections of gems; enough for me to comment that the really pristine cars are being found and bought at a very interesting rate. It reminds me of the guy in Atlanta who bought up all the Shelby AC Cobras years ago. The next thing you know, the price of Cobras went through the roof. I firmly believe this is happening right now in the Z market.

Yes, the cars are Japanese...and your point?

I truely believe that by the time I finish my $40,000 restoration, my Z will be worth $40,000. Like, next year. I truely believe there are guys out there, as you say, who are at the point of being able to buy a toy...or two...or "hey! these are cheap - I'll by four". I'm watching guys younger than me doing it right now. Hell, I have two! My conclusion is that the junk is going down in value and the gems are going up way high, way fast.