Why the die off in value of the Z?

[John Coffey]

Yes, the cars are Japanese...and your point?

I really wasn't trying to make a point, just pasing on comments from a "player" in Barrett-Jackson world. My own personal opinion is that 240Zs will be worth more to buyers in Japan then to buyers in the US. Probably that "pride of origin" thing. But, that's just an opinion and not based on any facts.

[MikeW]

RickX, what does that verbose gibberish have to do with this thread?

I'm glad I'm not the only one who had difficulty parsing all of those rambling sentence fragments. It seems to be an attempt at comparing the value of the Z to the value of other cars and motorcycles as well as an attack on certain eBay users.

[DatsunZGuy]

I wish I knew what became of this gem:

http://home.comcast.net/~datsun-240z/

Also, if Burt Diamond’s low mileage ’71 ever sold and for how much.

Knowing the selling price of both cars would be a good barometer on what market is willing to pay for prime specimens.

[AZ-240z]

DatsunZGuy,

That "Gem" is currently listed for sale on page two of this sites classified cars for sale.

[RickX]

Mike W.

Real life, ever sell a Z and on E-Bay? Weeks of ineptitude, chiselers, and I did not see one family bidding or asking a question.

4 months prior, sold another Z with no problems, Z-28 and '69, 2nd day, higher bidder telephone agreed on price, and I told him to out bid everyone. Days later car was in Ohio, paid with minutes.

Experience counts, not theory and assumptions!!!!!!!!!!

One more Z to go and then a parts inventory with many NOS items and dashes.

On 1200 Kawaski super bikes, none there, owner one Daytona, on one, got a new Lexus sports car as a reward, Black Pearl was of no value to him hence the sale. Needless to sale not one mechanical defect is an impressive record with a ECM and dozens of vacumn hoses and AC option.

My favorite, - hyper critical people minus the COPO Camaro or Hemi Cuda.

[AZ-240z]

RickX,

You have a short-hand way of expressing yourself, which, I believe, some of us are trying to decipher, and may have caused a little frustration for others in the attempt. I am not trying to be critical, and it is good to hear your perspective, and thought on your experiences with the ebay process.

I am really enjoying this discussion which lends itself to kind of a free hand expression to thoughts we all have, and gives greater creditabililty and affirmation to our choice of cars.

We would all like to believe, and are infatuated with the thought, that our car of choice has value and collectability yet to be achieved. This ground breaking, wonderful, little sport coupe deserves the broader attention of serious collectors, and from some things mentioned in this discussion, I believe that serious attention is not far away.

If, and this has been considered by some, a Concours event were to be created, with well defined criteria for judging, the original Datsun 240Z would then be elevated to, and capture the attention of the serious collector world. This would provide a yard stick, similarly used by Corvette collectors, by which to more easily define truly great originals, or restorations.

I know that I am rambling, but just had to voice an opinion from one who has enjoyed the same 240Z for almost 36 years.

[moonpup]

Originally posted by: RickX

Mike W.

Real life, ever sell a Z and on E-Bay? Weeks of ineptitude, chiselers, and I did not see one family bidding or asking a question.

4 months prior, sold another Z with no problems, Z-28 and '69, 2nd day, higher bidder telephone agreed on price, and I told him to out bid everyone. Days later car was in Ohio, paid with minutes.

Experience counts, not theory and assumptions!!!!!!!!!!

One more Z to go and then a parts inventory with many NOS items and dashes.

On 1200 Kawaski super bikes, none there, owner one Daytona, on one, got a new Lexus sports car as a reward, Black Pearl was of no value to him hence the sale. Needless to sale not one mechanical defect is an impressive record with a ECM and dozens of vacumn hoses and AC option.

My favorite, - hyper critical people minus the COPO Camaro or Hemi Cuda.

Well, here's my attempt at ciphering this post. :tapemouth

Mike W.

In Real life, have you ever sold a Z or better yet, one on E-Bay? Weeks of ineptitude, chiselers, and I did not see one family bidding or even asking a question.

4 months prior, I sold another Z with no problems, (Z-28 and '69/ no clue here. Maybe a 1969 Z-28?). On the 2nd day, the higher bidder telephones and we agreed on a price, and I told him to out bid everyone else. Days later the car was in Ohio, and paid within minutes.

Experience counts, not theory and assumptions!!!!!!!!!!

One more Z to go and then a parts inventory with many NOS items and dashes.

On 1200 Kawaski super bikes, none there, owner one Daytona, on one, got a new Lexus sports car as a reward, Black Pearl was of no value to him hence the sale. Needless to sale not one mechanical defect is an impressive record with a ECM and dozens of vacumn hoses and AC option. Sorry, I don't even know where to begin with this paragraph!

My favorite, - hyper critical people on most cars, with the exception of the COPO Camaro or Hemi Cuda.

[DeesZ]

I am not commenting to incite a riot or create bad will. Consider this my two cents worth and not an argument. eBay is an interesting market place. And that's exactly what it is, a market place with a world-wide buyer audience. Some of the buyers are bottom feeders and or chizzlers; some are big spenders. Most are somewhere in the middle, relatively honest folks seeking a fair price for something that they want to own. Sellers are cut out of the same bolts of fabric; some are less than honest in their representations and dealings, and others are very up-front and straight-forward. The most successful sellers are those that represent their goods for exactly what they are, provide lots of photographic evidence, and respond politely to questions that are posed to them. Bad seller attitudes drive prices down because buyers know that there will be another one of whatever it is up at auction again soon in a similar condition. Customer service, reputation, and attitude go a long way on eBay, just as it does on a used car lot or store. I'm simply not going to put thousands of my dollars into the hands of an individual that I have any doubts about. Period. I'd rather pass up on the "deal". I bought my second 240Z on eBay and got what satisfied me at a price that I thought was fair. The seller had hoped for more. I had hoped for a bargain and to pay less than I did. In the end, I paid what I considered to be a fair market value. The seller and I spoke at length on the telephone about the vehicle several times prior to my bidding. I felt comfortable with him and his representation of the vehicle. If I would have had any doubts, I would have waited for another similar offering from someone else. I wanted a solid daily driver with minimal rust and no major issues. That's what I got. I arrived at my assessment of FMV by prices and condition of vehicles offered for sale by folks on this website (and a fine group of folks this is!) as well as several others that specialize in Z's. Getting as close as I could to apples-to-apples comparisons, eBay and private sale prices are not that far off from one another (in my opinion, anyway). Honestly, there are not many truly high-end Z's that end up on eBay. Most (not all) of what is listed as fantastic collector grade original etc. has been doctored. You can see it in the pictures. Or most often, the listing sucks you in by stating 'like new', etc., then you get to the list of problems and issues that come with the package. Sometimes I gotta laugh at the listings.... what were they thinking when they said "show car"? Some of these sellers are not using the same 'grading system' that I would. Most of what are availabel on eBay are middle of the road or lower end examples. When a good one does come up, they seem to command a good price or do not sell because the reserve was not met. And what's the reserve? That's the seller's 'opinion' or 'feeling' of what the minimum amount that vehicle should bring is. I sold some very high quality diamonds for a guy a while back on eBay. His feelings about value were formed based upon appraisals that were several years old. I suggested that he get updated appraisals, and ask the jewler what a reasonable 'sale' price would be.... what would the jewler really expect to sell it for if it was in his display case on the open market. The jewler choked a bit when the question was popped, but finally leveled with him. On diamonds, you can anticipate about 1/3 (one third) of the appraised-for-insurance value. (And his diamonds sold for somewhere between 1/2 and 1/3 of the appraised values.) And yes, I know, Z-cars are not diamonds. But follow the thought here, some of this transfers to the automobile market. So we are dealing with a lot of "feelings" here related to value, and feelings are tough to contend with sometimes. I think that it's fair to say that many of the good / better vehicles don't even get to the eBay marketplace. Many are sold privately. Let's face it, a great example of a Z (or a piece of art work for that matter) has people in line making offers to buy it before the seller even decides to sell it. That has been my experience, anyway (for good stuff). I had standing offers on an old A-H 100-6 that I owned. It got sold to one of those people - never got advertised. It was much nicer than what was commonly available at the time (let's call it a 'desireable' piece). I was pleased with the price I got (actually surprised that the guy put that much money where his mouth was!) The last collector vehicle that I sold ('52 M38A1 jeep) never got listed on eBay. It went to an interested party that I 'met' on an enthusiast website. Interesting twist: we arrived at a 'fair price' derived from averages of similar vehicles sold on eBay. We were both satisfied, otherwise the deal would not have been made. With real estate, it's location, location, location. With cars, it's condition, condition, condition. The largest data base available for pricing many collectibles is the one available from eBay. I think I just completed the circle here. eBay has an influence on the market place, and the market place influences eBay (okay, it is eBay). If you want to know what people are willing to pay for an item, list it accurately on eBay and you will find out. I have been approached by people to list an item for them with an absurdly high reserve price, just to see what the true value of the item really is. It costs a few bucks to do that, but you do end up knowing what the market place will bear. I don't care what I have, it's only worth what someone else is willing to pay for it.

Buyers are just as smart as sellers in most cases, but it is incumbent upon the buyer to follow the old addage "let the buyer beware." I don't even bother with sellers that have less than a 98% positive feedback rating.

Sorry this got so long. "Reality" is hard to define because we all have a different opinion of what it is.

[RickX]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4649925814&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMESO%3AIT&rd=1

item # 464992581

AZ 240Z, DeesZ I agree with your postings, and quite similar to the 300ZX's I drive, my 240Z is and was a great car. Its on Pinnacle Peak Road now, and I'll take some pictures on Tuesday and a rust free Z, Ziebarted, ran very well in SCCA against Alpha's, 2002 Tii's. + 140 mph on straights at Bridgehampton with 2.4 litres and a stock bottom end with 9.0 compression seemed impressive. Mini-lites, Cannon/interpart headers, removal of the air pump are the variations from Original Equipment. RB cam & Kit plus Tilton SS valves are well concealed and idles at 850 rpm, redline is 1,800 rpm above factory.

Black Pearl is a nice driver, with no known mechanical failures. Add Sikkens, a new dash, and probably some rechroming to keep-up with the fresh paint, would have it in show competition. New owner will probably just drive it to death, as it has 72K miles and bought for $3,500.-- Honda or Camry $$.

[RickX]

MoonPup, does it really matter that it was a 1969 or how many tens of thousands above any Z that it was bid, won and paid? In 1970, Z-28 continuation cars were less than the new 240Z from Japan. Even in 1972, 240Z and the sticker was above any LT-1 Z-28.

That was not he point. Being professional and not trying to get any car, including the '78 Black Pearl for nothing IS THE POINT.

Mike W., who, I hope is not Mike Walton from E-Bay? Despicable Seller. Dragged the Kawasaki into the mix. Alex won Daytona as well as few other races in Europe and was give a new Lexus sports car. His 280Z. went on the block, which was the E-Bay travesty. Contact me off the net, at Xstates@Verizon.net, and I'll give you blow by blow account.

As a rider, and many free, new motorcycles, the Z was never driven, and service was documented. When something mechically needed attention or close to wearing out it was serviced with NOS parts.

Do you know anything on the ECM, heating, ventilation, and AC sytems on a 280Z? Have you ever seen hot air exit the vents on acceleration on those and newer Z's with age, and AC running?

Different ball game than an SU equipped Z. Point is NO NECHANICAL PROBLEMS with AC, low reading gauges, worthless factory struts: called PERFECTION.

On hyper-critical people: Buying a Hemi Cuda or L-88 Camaro or 'Vette? Then beat it to death, as one was offered to me for 1.75 million in Peoria, two weeks ago.

638 code '78 280Z which is less money than a '86 Supra, possibly a '82 Celica with IRS, any Honda or Acura... is beyond reality, that is the point. Plus Ziebarted, perfect chassis, low miles, perfect interior & if unhappy, with the Sale, just pay the relisting fees.

Both Alex and I have good jobs, and $3500. is two net, weekly pay checks. We or Alex should have wholesaled it to a dealer, for $2,500. 72 hours later with touch-up paint and detailing... $ 9,500.00 on a busy lot and Auto Trader.

Point is the Z-28, irregardless of year, was 1,000 % more $$ than a 280Z, 75 less questions, 280Z scrutinized on every square inch of the car, including "why was there oil residue, by the filler cap.

Chevy was not! Requested guarantees, on 2nd gear syncro, frame rails, and mileage, and then renegociation of the SP upon pick-up.

Z-28 had none of that and identical mileage, condition and matching numbers.

Moonpup ready for the Hemi, and 1.75 million, next week? I'll take the JPG's and e-mail them to you?

Can you send me some jpgs of your cars, I must be missing something here?

Rick

PS Selling a W-30 442, and a '69 Camaro and '66 Nova, owner, Denver, 327 350 hp - Muncie. He will buy it, sight unseen. Misses the E-Bay experience, is that a mistake?

[DatsunZGuy]

DatsunZGuy,

That "Gem" is currently listed for sale on page two of this sites classified cars for sale.

AZ-240z,

Thanks for pointing this out. That car has been on the selling block for a few years now.

[DougN]

RickX, I've got to add myself to the list of people who are having a hard time trying to follow what your saying in your posts. Also, you seem to be over-reacting a bit to those who have said the same thing. I case it's not clear - no one is attacking you here, we are all just trying to understand what you are trying to say.

For the record, MikeW lives about 5 miles from me here in Atlanta , and he is a decent, stand-up individual who is very knowledgeable about Z-cars, willingly shares that knowledge with others and is very helpful to any who ask his assistance.