Rear Glass w/no defroster??

[Carl Beck]

"Dribble"?

Carl, you make your own big contributions to the myths that surround these cars.

Hi Alan:

I try to research the subjects and report in a summary fashion what which I find. Taken from sources that can be referenced, for everyone here to read. So far nothing would indicate that the Z Car was ever "Designed From The Beginning" to be a "family" of cars all of equal importance to Nissan Motors Ltd.... Nor do I believe that the history books will ever focus equally on all the variations of the core design - that core was the DATSUN 240Z according to the people that designed and built it.

Refusing to acknowledge the S30-series Z as a "family" of variants is possibly the biggest single mark of disrespect you could make to the engineers and designers that worked on the project.

As usual - your replies are to statements taken out of context, or misquoted into statements I have not made. A good debate tactic, used to change the focus of the specific subject, but not very productive in terms of a discussion intended to pin down specifics and facts.

If you would like to view the first generation of S30 Z's (70-78) in hindsight as a "family of variants" I certainly would have no problem with that.

Personally I view them as variations to the original design, because my focus has been on attempting to find out not only who did actually design the car, but how that design came about, evolved and how it held its "design integrity" through the design to production transition.

At issue here is your assertion that "from the beginning" Matsuo's design was for a "family" of models. According to him, he and his team turned out a very specific final design. One that fit a very extensive set of major design requirements, all encouraged by, driven by, and/or derived from Mr. Katayama and the American Market. While retaining Mr. Matsuo's overall styling concepts.

Next time you meet Matsuo san you might like to ask him ( face to face ) what he thinks of your "American car, made in Japan" quote. He already told me what he thinks of it.

I will do that. I will also ask him why everything he has written for publication, everything he has stated publicly - would seem to be at such odds with his personal conversations with you.

From my research:

The Story of the Z Car - is the story of how Nissan changed the Design Paradigm for the automotive world in 1970, with the design and development of the Datsun 240-Z. That change was all about designing specific models for specific targeted export markets, rather than modifying domestic models for export. Nissan certainly did make accommodations during the down stream engineering and production planning phase to the Export model - to allow for limited domestic sales.

While "British Sports Cars" stayed very British, and "Italian Sports Cars" stayed very Italian; Nissan, Kawamata, Katayama and Matsuo - designed and then built a Sports/GT specifically for America, it was Sized for Americans, Powered for American driving needs, Luxuriously appointed to American expectations, designed to meet all US Regulations and priced to sell competitively in America - at great profit margins for Nissan.

That change in automotive design philosophy is what put Nissan in the #1 Sales Position here - and put the English and Italians all but out of the market.. and indeed in many cases out of business. It wasn't a family of sports cars - it was a design that evolved over time with and ever more specific focus on American customers - the DATSUN 240-Z. Everything else after that, was simply a logical and rational spin-off from there.

If you want to use the quote and still keep a straight face, you might like to apply it ONLY to the HLS30-U model.

Alan T.

For the reasons stated above - I believe that the statement is a good way of summarizing what actually took place, and I see no need to change it. It was actually a way of getting people to read the rational behind it... and it seems to work pretty well. If I titled it "Changing The Design Paridigm"...I doubt it would grab much attention.

FWIW,

Carl

[moonpup]

Carl Beck responding to HS30-H

"As usual - your replies are to statements taken out of context, or misquoted into statements I have not made. A good debate tactic, used to change the focus of the specific subject, but not very productive in terms of a discussion intended to pin down specifics and facts."

Thanks Carl, I was going to point that out earlier but never got around to it. I tried to nail him down, but he just continues to dance around. Example:

Originally Posted by moonpup

Or why the Japanese market needed an option to have the seat moved forward of its "usual export position" if let's say the target market was in fact the JDM?

Sorry, you never answered that and I was just curious.

HS30-H's response:

"You dug a hole and I just stepped over it. Be careful you don't fall in it yourself........."

As you see..."not very productive in terms of a discussion intended to pin down specifics and facts."

[Carl Beck]

You get the point? Don't write "240Z" when you mean 'S30' and "S30" when you mean '240Z' ( and don't forget to be specific about which type of '240Z' you mean ).

Hi Alan:

Ah... and just what would one mean - if they did use "S30" or "S30-series"? I've always found those terms to be meaningless, if not qualified with additional information.

IF You Use "S30" would it mean:

a) S30 unibody

S30 Fairlady Z-L

IF You Use "S30-series" would it mean:

c) S30-series of First Generation Z's (70-78)

d) S30-series of Nissan Fairlady Z-L's..

I certainly would not suggest that "S30" nor "S30-series" ever be used without the necessary additional information needed to to assign them an understandable meaning.

Don't use 240-Z when you mean Fairlady Z-L. Or, don't use 240-Z when you mean "the first generation of Z cars. etc etc. Do attempt to understand statements within the context that they are intended.

I think we could, and indeed should, drop the use of "S30" and "S30-series" as stand alone terms. By themselves, they are completely nondescriptive. Just use Fairlady Z-L, First Generation Z's, etc. That would be far less confusing for everyone.

FWIW,

Carl B.

[kats]

Hello,

Like Chris siad,I see this quite some times in Japanese auction.Please see this,

http://page9.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/k34893503

do not be surprised the starting bid,it is normal price in Japan.And this item has been showed up again and again.Why nobody buy it? I think it is just not attracitive/rare item for japanese people.If the starting bid is way low,maybe some one bid.

I am curious about these optional items(tinted and defroster).How many people did not choose these items?I think it could be non-defroster 1970-197? 240Z in the U.S. And how the dealer service man replace these parts for the brand-new 240zs?Was the labor easy or not?Where did these trash windscreens(also how about hub caps?) go?

kats

[Carl Beck]

Hi Kats:

Most of the Dealers I knew at the time never were ask to replace the clear glass with the tinted glass and rear defroster. Keep in mind that by the time the 240-Z's started arriving at the dealerships, Nissan Motor In U.S.A. had close to 900 Authorized Datsun Dealers. They tried to get at least a couple cars out to every dealer.... so only a couple of 240-Z's with clear glass would have been delivered to any one dealer at the time. If any of them did remove and replace the clear hatch glass, they most likely threw the originals in the trash.

The Dealers put aluminum wheels on almost every 240-Z before they sold them. That added additional profit to the car for them. At $3526.00 MSRP the dealers only had about $500.00 in profit to begin with. They paid on average about $20.00 for aluminum wheels then - and listed them at retail to the customers at $450.00.... thus adding $370.00 profit to the sale ! That was almost as much as they made selling the car. Body Side Protective Molding was also a very common extra cost equipment item added by the Dealers to most 240-Z's here. That cost them about $45.00 per car and they listed it for between $125.00 and $175.00.

The original "take-off" steel wheels and hubcaps were first sent to the Part Department for storage. At first this was only a few cars, but as the supply of 240-Z's started coming on stronger.. original wheels and hub caps started piling up in the Dealers Parts Departments... and then when they took up too much room and there were no buyers for them - the Dealers simply threw the excess stock in the trash.

In the Northern States, the Dealers were able to sell some of the stock steel wheels to customers that wanted/needed to mount winter tires. But that wasn't too many. No one wanted to buy those ugly hubcaps... not after they had seen a 240-Z with aluminum road wheels. Some customers did request that their hub caps be put in the cars prior to delivery - but the truth is most customers never even saw the original hub caps. By the time the Dealer was ready to deliver the car, they had already been removed and replaced the extra cost aluminum wheels.

As late as 1985 several Dealers still had some in their warehouse as they had retained a few... but as time passed and more room was needed for newer parts that were being sold - the last of the OEM Take-Off's were also thrown in the Trash. This is a normal way of doing business - obsolete and non-selling parts get throw out, because the cost of shelf space to store them, exceeds their value.

There isn't much demand for rear hatch glass here in the US - it doesn't seem to get broken very often. For a long time, if an owner had a broken rear hatch glass - they just went to the local junk yard and bought the entire rear deck lid The only people here in the States that want the clear hatch glass with no defroster wires - are people restoring the very early cars (prior to #1456) - and there aren't really that many of them, that don't have their original glass.

On the US Spec. DATSUN 240-Z's after #1456 the tinted glass with the rear window defroster was standard equipment - so the customers had no option. Of course the tinted glass was a very useful standard equipment item because the hatch back design leads to a lot of heat in the car from the Sun. To keep the cars cooler, the after-market suppliers came up with the first rear window shade kits.

FWIW,

Carl B.

Carl Beck

Clearwater, FL USA

http://ZHome.com

[26th-Z]

Carl,

I disagree with you and I will thank you to not refer to my opinion as "dribble". In kind, I will try to stay off your case. I too, have read a significant amount of various accounts and documents. I too, have spoken directly with Matsuo-san and Katayama-san. I too, have an example of the car undergoing meticulous reconstruction. And my opinion is "family". I'm sorry you disagree and I think if you buy me a beer, I will feel much better.

Alan, you gotta get off his case!

Hi Kats! I sent your link to Jim - he is looking for clear glass.

Chris

[Arne]

{Imagine the sound of Arne donning his Nomex gear, in preparation for the flames.}

You know, as a 240Z owner who has not met - and likely will never meet - any of the principals in the design process of these cars (note that I am trying to be all-inclusive here), threads like this one (and there have been several since I joined here about a year ago) are interesting, reassuring, and yet rather troubling to me.

Interesting, because I learn all sorts of little details.

Reassuring, because it is obvious that there are many people here who are extremely passionate about these cars, and that bodes well for the future preservation of them.

But troubling as well, because there seems to be a serious undercurrent of sniping, back-stabbing and general ill-will to some of these posts.

Now I will grant that as a Z owner I am a relative newbie. But (unfortunately) I'm not a young man any more, and my decades of communicating with other humans tells me that even if we all were to talk personally with the principal parties, it is probable that we would all come away with differing opinions. None of us were there, and so none of us will ever know the details, motivations, etc. first hand.

So I guess I'd really be happier if everyone would just lighten up a bit. We are all here because we share a passion for these cars. I really don't think it matters to most people 30-40 years later why a certain part was or was not used on a certain car or in a certain market at any one point in time. Yes it matters that we know about the parts, but from this distance in time, the motivations behind it probably aren't important.