Warning dumb question ahead....

[hls30.com]

The one problem with that logic is that the first monocoque airframe was produced in Russia in 1913. and "The first automotive application of the monocoque technique was 1923's Lancia Lambda. Chrysler and Citroën built the first mass-produced monocoque vehicles, both in 1934, with the innovative Chrysler Airflow and the Traction Avant, respectively. The popular Volkswagen Beetle also used a semi-monocoque body (its frame required the body for support) in 1938. "

The Japanese (not necessarily just those that worked at Prince)were notorious for copying and adapting British, American, and German technology. Many if not all of the vehicles left after WW2 were copied to the point that the engine of the First Nissan Patrol was completely parts interchangeable with a 1937 chevy engine.

Prince engineers brought technology that was available to all of Japan to the Z, just as the Nissan Engineers did.

Will

[Carl Beck]

Prince + Nissan - the Whole was greater than the sum of the parts..

Mr. Matsuo writes as he tells his story of the design progression and process:

... Autumn of 1967...

"Mr. Katayama had requested the 2.4 liter L24 powerplant, while the Japanese market had exorbitant taxes on vehicles over 2,000cc. Nissan had just taken over the Prince concern, and were were told to use their two-liter S20 twin-cam unit. (this eventually became the famous Z432 model, incidentally.) "

So if not by Design, then by Management Directive, the 240-Z became the Z432 with the first 2.0L engine specified for the Japanese market.... and thus the Z took on some major genes from Prince.

FWIW,

Carl B.

[Carl Beck]

The Japanese (not necessarily just those that worked at Prince)were notorious for copying and adapting British, American, and German technology. Many if not all of the vehicles left after WW2 were copied to the point that the engine of the First Nissan Patrol was completely parts interchangeable with a 1937 chevy engine.

Hi Will:

No question that the automotive world was/is one of evolution, and sometimes revolution. If we trace the origins of almost anything automotive, back far enough we get back to the lever, the wheel and the screw. <vbg>.

I also agree that much of the automotive worlds technologies were broadly available to the far younger "Japanese Automotive Industry". I think the point is - it was the smartest one's that grabbed the best ideas first and put them to use. Gisuke Aikawa at Nissan was one of the quickest, and the people at Prince were among the best, at recognizing and grabbing great technologies then blending them with Japanese cultural values and capabilities. Modular manufacturing was a very classic example. (there are several).

I don't know about the interchangeability of parts between the Nissan Patrol's engine and Chevy; but the in-line six used in the Nissan 4WD vehicles of the early 50's was actually the Model 73 engine purchased by Nissan from Graham-Paige, April 20, 1936.

They got the engine along with the Graham-Paige Crusader and all manufacturing machinery that produced it. The Graham-Paige Crusader was presented by Nissan as their Model 70 to Japanese buyers in 1937.

The Model 73 engine with it's 225 cid and 85HP (then called the Nissan "A" engine) powered 35,000 Model 80 Trucks produced between 1937 and 1940. The engine drove over 3,000 Model 90 Buses as well during the same period. After the war, the same engine was introduced into Nissan's first 4WD vehicles in 51/52 - the 4W-60 and 4W-70. These vehicles were the forerunners to the Patrol.

In 1955 Nissan hired American automotive engineer Donald P. Stone to increase the HP of the engine. The result was the Nissan NC engine. This "L" head design was rated at 105HP and was used for the following 4 years. Stone modified the design again in 1959 incorporating an Overhead Valve design. This and other modifications allowed the engine - now known as the "P" engine to be rated at 125HP. Interestingly even with the major design changes to the head, the basic Graham-Paige designed block, crankshaft and rods were continued. The "P" engine was used in Nissan trucks and bus lines through 1986.

If you have an interest - I have a copy of Appendix B - of the Graham-Paige Story. It's titled "The Nissan Connection" and was compiled by Bill McCall and Michael E. Keller. I'll be glad to scan it for you.

FWIW,

Carl B.

[Sailor Bob]

I'm no expert, but L or l seems to remind me in the term "in line" or "longitudinal" (meaning for and aft) kind of like "v" indicates the longitudunal profile of the layout of a V type engine. I guess I'm trying to say it may be a indication of shape/disposition as opposed to an initial.

As I said earlier the Z thing - I don't know the origin but I like the Zero theory/story and the Zero was considered one of the best planes (for purpose) in the world when initially built and flown.

The Z car is in that gene pool - pretty cool thought. Probably one of the best sports cars (dollar for dollar) ever built.

[Carl Beck]

The one problem with that logic is that the first monocoque airframe was produced in Russia in 1913.....snipped..cjb...

.....snipped..cjb...

Prince engineers brought technology that was available to all of Japan to the Z, just as the Nissan Engineers did.

Hi Will:

The logic was not intended to infer that any of the technologies or truly "new" designs were invented in Japan, but rather to show who picked them up and applied them earliest. As well as to highlight the different approaches taken by Prince and Nissan toward the same end. (to produce and sell cars).

There are several factors involved here. Might be interesting to look at a couple of them.

I'd agree that both Nissan and Prince engineers brought technology that was broadly available to all of Japan to Nissan Motors Ltd. However I see quite different engineering talent, tools and techniques between the two at any point in time prior to their merger.

While Nissan rebuilt after the war, starting in 1949 with its existing Truck Production facilities at Yokohama (which had not been bombed during the war) - and regaining many of it's previous production engineering and management staff (mnius Aikawa who had been imprisoned for War Crimes in China). Prince grew out of a completely different environment. For that matter so did Toyota. (Toyota Loom Corporation)...

At any rate, this lead to Nissan focusing on rebuilding their Production and Manufacturing facilities and capabilities through the 50's and early 60's. So focused was Nissan's attention on Production and Manufacturing - they won the Deming Prize, one of Japan's highest awards, for Manufacturing for 1960.

Product Design (styling) and product Engineering really started to get internal emphasis (rather than being out-sourced) within Nissan around 61/63 as far as I can see. As you said, when Nissan did restart the production of passenger cars - they licensed the design and product engineering from Austin.

On the other hand Prince Motors was formed out of a spin off out of a huge conglomerate. By 1960 the Managing Director of Prince Motor Company was named Dr. Ryoichi Nakagawa and he was responsible for Prince's Engineering Policy as well. (During the war he had been the designer of the of the "Zero" fighter aircraft engine at the Nakajima Aircraft Company.) By 1961 Prince Skylines were running the East African Safari Rally! So you can see where their corporate focus was.

So, while both Prince and Nissan brought significant engineering talent to the table - there was a large difference in the experience base and type of engineering expertises the two contributed. Needless to say that Nissan certainly out shinned Prince in terms of sound Strategic Planning and Financial Management... but it was Prince's engine and racing program that was continued within Nissan while their own program was dropped after the merger.

At any rate - the whole thing is a fascinating story to follow..

FWIW,

Carl B.

[Zedrally]

Hi all,

Fascinating and fustrating all of this!

One aspect that sticks in my mind is how the "Z" became attached.

I can't see it as Project file or whatever "Z", purely because that character (as we have been previously told), does not exist in any of the Japanese written alphabet ( I don't belive alphabet is the correct term to use here, but I'm sure all readers know what I mean).

The project file would have been in Japanese, wouldn't it?

Still fascinating and I would suspect that Mr. K would have had his finger in it somehow!

[hls30.com]

If you have an interest - I have a copy of Appendix B - of the Graham-Paige Story. It's titled "The Nissan Connection" and was compiled by Bill McCall and Michael E. Keller. I'll be glad to scan it for you.

FWIW,

Carl B.

Please!

I agree that Prince took advantage of what was being done and not necessarily what was dropped in their lap. I also agree that together the Prince and Nissan made a better entity than the individual pieces-the amalgamation of the two cultures really worked well together! Prince did "work" for more of what they used than most Japanese companies-which made them less profittable-they were more interested in doing it better than getting it done, more work takes longer and costs more. Nissan was more interested in getting it done than doing it better-together the two cultures established a balance in the organization that neither had alone.

One other thing to realize-Virtually all Japanese engineers working in the automotive industry after the war had worked in Military vehicle (Be it wheeled, tracked, or winged) because the entire automotive industry (as with the vast majority of the manufacturing consergns) was put into military production.

Demming did a wonderful thing for the Japanese paid for by the USA, and they repaid the USA with the famed "japanese inspection", and him with the establishment of the prize-another thread...

PS, Don't forget prior to the war Honda made only bicycles-maybe that has something to do with why their engines run backwards...

Will

[Carl Beck]

I guess I'm trying to say it may be a indication of shape/disposition as opposed to an initial.

Hi Rick:

Shape/position is correct. "L" as in L24 stands for the type of in-line six. An "L" series engine has both the intake and exhaust valves located to one side of center in the combustion chambers - forming a sort of in an inverted "L". This can be a Flat Head, Over-Head Valve or Over-Head Cam design.

FWIW,

Carl B.

Carl Beck

Clearwater, FL USA

http://ZHome.com

[Carl Beck]

To further the point: Quoting Carl's article

.....snipped...cjb....

an over head cam, 1600cc engine rated at 97HP (from Prince)

.....snipped...cjb....

- From 1966 to early 68 The Dastun 240-Z is in design..

.....snipped...cjb....

2.4L ohc rated at 151HP with Twin SU's

.....snipped...cjb....

Hi Rick:

As Alan has convinced me that the L16 and L24 were redesigns of the previous Nissan L series.... I'll have to up-date "b)" and "b)" above... to read:

an over-head cam, 1600cc engine rated at 97HP

and

a 2.0L twin cam engine rated at 160HP (from Prince)

FWIW,

Carl B.

Carl Beck

Clearwater, FL USA

http://ZHome.com

[Zedrally]

To further the point: Quoting Carl's article

- In 1966 the Prince Motor Company Ltd. was merged into Nissan Motors Ltd.

- From its design phase in 1966 until it's production release in 1968 the Datsun 510 "somehow"" received:

It's production release was actually in 1967. RHD versions where available for sale and were brought in Australia in 1967.

[HS30-H]

Mr. Matsuo writes as he tells his story of the design progression and process:

... Autumn of 1967...

"Mr. Katayama had requested the 2.4 liter L24 powerplant, while the Japanese market had exorbitant taxes on vehicles over 2,000cc. Nissan had just taken over the Prince concern, and were were told to use their two-liter S20 twin-cam unit. (this eventually became the famous Z432 model, incidentally.) "

So if not by Design, then by Management Directive, the 240-Z became the Z432 with the first 2.0L engine specified for the Japanese market.... and thus the Z took on some major genes from Prince.

FWIW,

Carl B.

Carl,

How many times do I have to tell you this before it finally sinks in? The above section of the book was badly phrased, badly written and - above all - basically inaccurate. This is not surprising if we remind ourselves that Matsuo san was 'interviewed' by the staff writer at MIKI PRESS who actually wrote the chapter, which then got sent upwards in the chain to be subbed. Miho and Brian Long then 'translated' this into English with their own perspective ( literal Japanese to English translation is always difficult, I can tell you - so they have my full sympathy ) and that version is what you are basing your 'research' on. At best it is third-hand, after-the-fact and somewhat muddled.

To simplify, the correct sequence of events is that the twin-carb high comp version of the L20 six had ALREADY been decided upon before the 'Export' market L24 was mooted. There was no magic jump from a four banger to an L24 and then a step back to the L20. Katayama simply wanted more torque and power, and lobbied for a larger capacity version for 'his' market.

The Japanese market was initially to get the twin carb L20 and a more sporty triple sidedraught carbed version of that L20 ( with around 150hp ) before upper management pointed out that they already had the S20 twin cam, and really ought to use that instead. The pepped-up version of the L20 was therefore dropped and the S20 used instead. The twin carbed L20 was 'the' S30-series Z engine before the L24 and S20 joined it. That S20 installation required changes to the S30-series design that appeared on every first-generation L-series engined car. Most people never even notice these.

So you see the Miki Press book is not entirely accurate in its account. I suspect that this is due to a combination of Matsuo re-remembering events long after they happened, and having the useful ( but sometimes misleading ) benefit of hindsight, along with at least TWO sets of writers interpreting his words with their own take on events. He explains it much more logically when you sit down and talk it through with him and ask the right questions.

So can we please remember that the twin carbed L20 six was already part of the design before the L24 and the S20?

Thanks,

Alan T.

[sakijo]

Carl,

Chop . . .

The twin carbed L20 was 'the' S30-series Z engine before the L24 and S30 joined it.

So can we please remember that the twin carbed L20 six was already part of the design before the L24 and the S20?

Thanks,

Alan T.

The L20 twin carb six was in fact, the standard Z engine well into the 70s because of the Japanese taxes on large engined cars, as Carl has pointed out. This continued in Japan even after the L24 and L26 were developed. The L20 is the "original" L-gata engine and is given the dubious honor of being the largest (physically, dimensionally) 2 liter six. If one were to take the L20, L24, L26 and L28 engines and line them up side-by-side, you will find that they are exactly the same size and except for a few minor differences, identical. You don't make a big engine small, you make a small engine big. And Nissan already had the L20 in the Skylines before the Z was made.