Warning dumb question ahead....

[HS30-H]

By 1960 the Managing Director of Prince Motor Company was named Dr. Ryoichi Nakagawa and he was responsible for Prince's Engineering Policy as well. (During the war he had been the designer of the of the "Zero" fighter aircraft engine at the Nakajima Aircraft Company.)

You make it sound like Nakagawa was responsible for the engine of the "Zero" from the beginning. That was not the case. He came into the story a little after it had begun.

Proper lineage of the 'Sakae' engine effectively begins with the 'NAM' - designed by Takeo Kotani and Masatoshi Tsutsumi of Nakajima. This was a completely new design for Nakajima, and it was destined to become the first 'Sakae' engine. The 'NAM II' became the 'Sakae 12' - the first engine used in what became known as the "Zero".

Dr Nakagawa worked on the 'NAM III' engine ( an update of the 'NAM II' / 'Sakae 12' ) which became the 'Sakae 21' - used in the late versions of the 'Zero'.

We ought to take this implied linking of the 'Zero' aircraft name with that of the 'Fairlady Z' with a HUGE pinch of salt! It is painful to see Sailor Bob take it all so literally - as though it is fact. But the term "Zero" for that aircraft was never really used by the Japanese themselves until after hostilities had ended, and most likely caught on in reverse from the Allied use of the term.

The correct Japanese term was 'Rei' ( meaning zero ) - which originated from the both the Japanese national dating system year of 2600 ( the Japanese nation was decided to have been founded in 660BC ), and the Western year of 1940. Both of these years ended in the number zero ( 'Rei' in Japanese ) and this was the year that the Japanese Navy accepted the new fighter into their fleet. The correct romanised Japanese name for the aircraft was 'Rei Shiki Sentoki' ( literally 'Type Zero Fighter' ) - often shortened to 'Rei-sen' - from the full term that translates as 'Mitsubishi Navy Type Zero Carrier-Based Fighter'.

Any linking of the letter 'Z' between the aircraft and the car are purely romantic and fairly misleading. This especially when you consider that the Prince Motor Company themselves actually linked their company history ( directly through Dr Ryoichi Nakagawa ) with the Nakajima Ki-43 'Hayabusa' ( codenamed 'Oscar' by the Allies ) - which was developed a year after the 'Rei-sen', but used the same engines and looked very similar. The 'Rei-sen' was a Naval aircraft and the 'Hayabusa' was an Army aircraft. So the direct Prince link with the 'Zero' is tenuous, and the 'Hayabusa' is a much better candidate.

Needless to say that Nissan certainly out shinned Prince in terms of sound Strategic Planning and Financial Management... but it was Prince's engine and racing program that was continued within Nissan while their own program was dropped after the merger.

Not so. The ex-Prince faction ( "the artists formerly known as Prince"? ) effectively formed their own clique within the Nissan fold, and treated Murayama as though it was their own private fiefdom within Nissan. Their racing-related activities were now being conducted under the 'Nissan' name, but they were still fiercely proud of being from the Prince bloodline. Nissan carried on their own race and rally related activities at Oppama ( they didn't "drop" anything except their very limited forays into building a sports racer ), and a kind of rivalry between the two factions came into being. They were forced to share personnel and technologies, but nevertheless the internal rivalry persisted. Vestiges of this still remain today; the team developing the new GT-R are direct descendents of the ex-Prince contingent that was headed by Shinichiro Sakurai, and have their own remit whilst still being part of Nissan. Nissan has come to accept and arguably foster the distinction.

Alan T.

[Doehring]

Sorry, I read somewhere that the L-6 Cylinder engine was under a licence that Prince got from Mercedes-Benz. The engines really look very similar. What's the truth about that story? I'm shure you know it, Alan!

Rolf

[HS30-H]

If one were to take the L20, L24, L26 and L28 engines and line them up side-by-side, you will find that they are exactly the same size and except for a few minor differences, identical. You don't make a big engine small, you make a small engine big. And Nissan already had the L20 in the Skylines before the Z was made.

Hi Miles,

More than once I've tried on this forum to get across the point that Nissan's 'L-gata' engines were designed by Mr Hiroshi Iida and his team as a potential 'family' of variants. They called this the 'L-gata Module', and they deliberately designed-in the possibility of multiple variants of differing capacity by allowing for a basic block design with a deep skirt, the possibility of a long stroke length, and a wide bore pitch. The history of the Nissan L-series engine did not begin with the L16 of the 510-series Bluebird, and the six cylinder L-series engines did not begin when two extra cylinders were "added" to the L16 to make an L24. That is just advertising copy for one particular market.

The Nissan 'L-gata' was used in many models in Japan, and was not always confined to a 2-litre capacity. Many people seem to overlook this. I have a Japanese market car that was fitted from the factory with an L24..........

Sorry, I read somewhere that the L-6 Cylinder engine was under a licence that Prince got from Mercedes-Benz. The engines really look very similar. What's the truth about that story? I'm shure you know it, Alan!

Hi Rolf,

Hiroshi Iida and his team designed Nissan's 'L-gata' engine module during the 1964~1965 period, a full year before the merger with Prince. Iida himself has admitted to being "influenced" by what he saw on the Prince G7 engine, but he also says that he was "influenced" by what he saw on the Mercedes ( and other ) engines. I think that is an engineer being candid, and I don't think many engineers work in a vacuum.

I believe that Prince actually licensed some design details used on the G7 valvetrain from Mercedes, but Nissan did not. Since the Nissan engine design debuted before the merger with Prince, I think it is fair for us to assume that no data or designs passed from Prince to Nissan before the merger. Iida san himself says he considered Prince a worthy competitor, but that he and his team were directly competing in the market place with Toyota. It was the news that Toyota were working on a new SOHC straight six to be used on their mid-sized and full-sized sedans that prompted Nissan's decision to go for a new SOHC six themselves from 1963/4.

Cheers,

Alan T.

[Doehring]

Thanks Alan, good to know that clear position!

[Sailor Bob]

That was a thorough bubble bursting. It's kind of tricky to find a romantic version of the origin of Z in all that and not being an engineer I like the Zero version better. Makes a better curb side yarn (Newfoundland speak for a story with elastic properties).

[Carl Beck]

Please!

Hi Will:

Sorry for the delay.. the Graham-Paige / Nissan Connection article is located at:

<a href=http://zhome.com/History/GrahamPaige/GrahamPaige.htm TARGET=NEW> The Z Car Home Page</a>

It is a large file comprised of 11 .jpg images, so it will take a while to load. I think you'll enjoy it.

regards,

Carl

[hls30.com]

Carl,

Thanks for setting up my evening reading!!

Will