Your feelings about Z's

[LEB]

Ha, I'm trying to post a new thread and I think I just found an appropriate spot to do it.

My primary interest is in design (Industrial and Transportation) and I've noticed here that there is a very well established feeling relative to where Nissan is going with the 1st and 2nd generation 350Z's. There may be some strong feelings about the 2+2 cars as well or even the differences between the 240, 260, 280, 300zx, etc.

So, How do you feel about the most recent Z's and why do you feel that way? Or how do you feel about the

Z car you drive and the rest of the Z line?

In order to keep these thoughts in some kind of usable and understandable order it would be good if you could offer something about why you feel the way you do as well as offer something about where you're coming from relative to demographics. Like approximate age, geographic location, profession, education, or anything else that might describe you in the social/cultural structure.

There aren't any wrong answers here. Everybody is entitled to have their own feelings and not be judged by anyone else.

Let's try to not let this become food fight and just see where it goes.

Thanks, Larry

[BRE-240Z]

What might be interesting is if someone were to do a 'design perspective' for the Z, similar to what Steve Eastwood did not too long ago for the 'Neo' 510....

http://www.s-e-design.com/sedesign_113.htm

[veritech-z]

We had a thread that went on for some time on this subject over at Hybridz. I'm a 26 year old Floridian, college graduate (studio art major), and a two time 280z owner. My first was a 78, current is a 77. I personally like the idea of the 350z as it sits, but I don't find it to be practical for me as a daily driver, and I don't make enough to support it as a second vehicle. Personally, I think that my interest would be in an entry level sports car, something light (under 3k lbs-light by today's standards since even a mini cooper is 3k lbs) with 200-250hp and rear wheel drive. Wheels no bigger than 16X8, preferably 15X8. I don't care for high offset wheels, so no more than say +25 offset to get a nice dish. I don't particularly care how that HP figure is achieved, whether it be 4cyl, 6cyl, turbo, what have you, but I think that would be a decent amount to start with. If we are talking Nissan, I think a QR25DE would make for a sporty engine in rear wheel drive configuration. Rear wheel drive because while FWD can be sporty, a sports car has to be RWD. Minimal options to save on weight and keep costs down, so power windows and locks would be optional, A/C would be optional, no navigation or backup cameras or heated 9 way power seats or any of that other garbage. I don't mind power steering, but if the car was light enough and the wheels weren't too rediculously oversized, that could be an option too. I don't like T-tops or convertables, but an optional sunroof would be ok. Hatchback styling is alright, but if there is going to be a gigantor strut tower brace, it needs to be removable (I'm looking at YOU 350z). Anyway, that's my 2.5 cents. Anybody else?

[beandip]

I will jump in here . First of all I own a 240z . I prefer the styling of this car to all the other Zs that have been built , otherwise I would own one of the others. Along with the 240 all the 280s up to the '79 fall into the same category for me, as far as styling. I personally will never own a 350Z because I dislike the look of the car totally . Instead I would buy the G-35 . Or a RX-8 . I know I am going to be blasted for this opinion . But we all have one and this is mine . I prefer the simplicity of the 240 to the more complicated later versions of the later Zs . If I were to replace my Z . Most likely I would do it with a early 280 only because of availability , because the 240s are becoming difficult to find in good condition. Gary:classic:

[BRE-240Z]

I personally will never own a 350Z because I dislike the look of the car totally . Instead I would buy the G-35 . Or a RX-8 . I know I am going to be blasted for this opinion . But we all have one and this is mine . I prefer the simplicity of the 240 to the more complicated later versions of the later Zs .

No, I agree with you on this. The RX-8 in a lot of ways is a perfect 'adult' sports car type vehicle (considering that many of us have to take kids to school, occasionally carry more than one passenger, etc). I just prefer a car with more torque and low-end 'grunt' than what the RX-8 can deliver.

If Nissan could come out with a simple, clean design that was S30-esque with good power and in RWD, I know they would sell at least one.

[xray]

My 2 cents:

35 year old physician. Now owner of my second 240Z. I appreciate what Nissan is doing with their 350Z, being a fresh concept that appears directed more to the new sportscar buyer than those with a long enough memory to recall the S30. I'm glad it's been a success because it breathes some life into the S30 lineage, and has, in part, enabled the Skyline to come to America (still counting my pennies--looks like I have a long way to go....)

BUT---I think the 350Z should have been more GT-esque. You know, long hood, tucked in round rear, smooth curve over the front and rear fender. (TVR is the closest I've seen recently to reflect those great lines....) RWD, 2 door, 2 seater for sure. Engine? I think an inline 6 with supercharger would be nice. Minimum weight-to-power ratio of 10:1 probably puts it at 300-325 depending on safety gear and such...

Hey Larry---CAD us up some nice designs so we can at least imagine what it could be like to "reinvent" the Z....

S

[Carl Beck]

Hi Larry:

Demographics:

My Dad owned a Shell Service Station/Truck Stop.. so I grew up with the sweet smell of leaded gasoline, asbestos brake linings and at the tracks of the time "bean oil". Been a car nut since I can remember!... Worked my way through college working in Bar's and Selling Cars.

I was 25 when I bought my first 240-Z... today I'm...ah...what?...61...yea gad! When I bought my first 240-Z in March of 1970 - I was on active duty with the USAF.. I was driving a Porsche 911 and had a 55 T-Brid parked in the garage most of the time (and had several sports cars prior to that.. )

I have a M.S. (Systems) and worked in Aerospace Systems Engineering, Project Management and Engineering Management for 25 years here in Clearwater, Florida. Honeywell Space Systems.

Thus my interest in the Design/Development of the Z Car...as well as most other designs of anything.

The Z Car:

Since May of 1970 (had to wait to take my car off the showroom floor until May)... there has not been a day that I haven't had at least one DATSUN 240-Z. Over the years I've had just about any car I've ever wanted...as the boys were growing up we went though Muscle Cars (a couple of mine are featured in many Ford and Chevy Books/Magazines)... I've had V-12 Jag's and Ferraris... from AM-X's to Z's ... just about anything.. They all came and went.... but the Datsun 240-Z always stayed. I still have the Metallic Blue 72 240-Z that I bought new in 72 (among others).

I can honestly say that the Datsun 240-Z is the best Sports/GT if not the best car I've ever owned. (without regard to price).

It's visual beauty first attracted me... it's build quality drew me in farther.. and it's drive train and suspension simply demanded that I at least drive it. My first test drive is a long story in and of itself... suffice to say from the first drive I was hooked.

Here was a great looking Sports/GT that actually had the headroom, leg room that the average American needed... plus more than adequate power and handing for a great GT. I didn't realize it at the time I bought it - but the huge cargo area with a full hatchback made living with the 240-Z a real pleasure and most likely one factor that made me keep it so long - "UTILITY" in addition to Sport...

Over the years the Z also proved itself to be all but bullet-proof mechanically and very easy to maintain. KISS....applies to the fullest here. We took it auto-crossing, we took it camping.. we took it up/down the West Coast and Across America...I can say that you will find even today no finer Grand Touring Car... none as much sheer fun to drive. You become part of the 240-Z, and it becomes part of the road... you feel and hear everything the car does... You feel alive and participating when driving a 240-Z - not just a passenger along for the ride, insulated from the world...

Bottom line - Beauty, Reliability, Simplicity, Utility, light weight and tossable.. simply FUN... in a package that fits you like a glove.

Why did I not want a Nissan 350-Z?

It is all but the exact opposite of the DATSUN 240-Z.

- Styled like all too many other lumps on the road today

- Too heavy and overloaded with options and too expensive

- A hatchback that is really a joke... a rear strut brace you can't take out (give me a break!)

- A side window sill height - that leaves your left arm above your shoulder if you like to have your window open and your arm resting on the door...

- Can't fully recline the seat and you can't sleep in the rear hatch area...(nor do other things we could do in the 240-Z ;-)

- Nothing really "break though" about the design ... nothing really notable.. just another car... it stirs no real passion...

What more modern car would I like to have today in addition to the 240-Z (if I hit the Lotto..)

A BMW Z08

A 1997/8 Aston Martin DB-7 (in-line six)

FWIW,

Carl B.

Carl Beck

Clearwater, Fl USA

http://ZHome.com

[LEB]

OK, in as much as I started this thing I should try to contribute something.

I'm even older than Carl, I'm 64. I retired from Nissan Design in 2000 as General Manager of Model-making. I've been consulting/contracting sense. I've worked with Nissan, Mazda, Mitsubishi, Hyundai, KIA, GM, Isuzu, Socal Speed Shop, Aria and some folks in China that nobody here has heard of YET.

My expertise is clay models and the design process. I've been involved with automotive design ever sense leaving a graduate program at the University of New Mexico in 1967 to go to GM. It's been fun.

I have a fascination with design and the design process. That's why I'm interested in hearing enthusiastic people share their feelings about Z cars. I've had many Z's starting in 1980 when ordering my first Nissan company car. We actually had accesses to not only the Nissan stuff but all the direct competition.

Unfortunately when I look at cars I don't consider whether I like them or not personally but rather I consider if it's good design, well executed, what the form vocabulary is, the amount of risk that it takes, etc.,etc.

I've been programed to not have the emotional feelings that most people who like cars have. My job has always been to make it the best that it can be even if it's a loser. Everything can be improved.

The common thread I see so far is that although the acronym GT is used, it seems to be relatively consistent that the folks here are attracted to the notion of keeping it simple. Of course the other side is how high-tech can you get.

I sometimes teach a class on the emotional content of form. If you think about it that's what cars really are to a lot of us. Many people see their car as an extension of themselves. The custom/hot rod folks are a good example.

Enough for now. I've got a beautiful 240 that I just painted and am trying to get back on the road.

Thanks everybody for participating,

Larry

[hls30.com]

Here is my contribution to the next 350Z and its ad.

First, what I love about my 240Z and what is completely missing in the 350Z.

Favorable Passion.

I will leave the reasons for this to another post-I wrote about it and took the three pages back out-not pertinant to this thread. It suffices to say that there ar evidently no more car people with any authority in Nissan. Accountant are not passionate about cars, they are passionate about getting as much for as little as possible-good for those who love profits, and completely disappointing for those that love people, love lfie and love cars.

I have been favorably passionate about S30s since I saw my first onein 1970 at seven years old from a school bus window, and thought, "I am going to get one of those devil-fish cars."

I have driven a great many cars from a 3 cyl what ever the hell it was, to an Aston Martin Z, to a Shelby GT (all but the 3cyl can be seen in my gallery), and though many of the cars are incredibly faster than the 240Z, none are as fun to live with. I posted this in a thread where I was accused of being an old man "talking about one of them "new fangled things" that you just don't understand." I have driven every version of the 350Z that has been available in my area-nice car to drive-good, even great technology-poor connection to the NIssan promise of a 240Z relationship. If I could arange to drop into one without having to look at or be seen in it, it would make for fun transportation. Please note the use of "Nice" and "Transportation", two words I have never used in talking about a 240Z.

The 350Z reminded me of a an ugly woman with a favorable passion for sex and nothing else-a fantastic way to spend a blindfolded few weeks, but no chance I would keep her for a lifetime.

Maybe that does make me an old man...

The technoilogy in the 350Z is good stuf, the styling is reminiscent of the 80s description of "a gumdrop with wheels". The car looks like an Audi TT-remove the badges, take it into an Audi Dealer(or the TT into a Nissan dealer) and watch them get ready to tune it up-the technicians can even confuse them. One of the most strikeing things about the 240Z is the only other car with a similar profile is another S30! I have made my opinion pretty plain in a good many threads. The 350Z is not a bad car, it simply isn't a Z to me. It is a tuned up G35 wrapped with more ugly and bigger wheels.

The biggest lie from Nissan was the advertising that the 350Z was a continuation of the 240Z. A Z should never have more in common with an Audi TT than an S30.

Nissan Painted a picture of a relationship where one does not exist. Useing a 240Z to build hype tells me Nissan didn't feel the car could do it on its own, whether that was due to the lack of a favorably passionate champion is more a comment on the new culture at Nissan than I want to get into.

I would like the 350Zs looks better if it were covered with the sheetmetal from a Ford Fiesta, and that is just sad.

Will

PS I tinke previous 300 was the second most beautiful Z design.

[DeesZ]

hls30.com IMHO has summed it up well with this statement:

"One of the most strikeing things about the 240Z is the only other car with a similar profile is another S30!"

The question is "How do I feel about the recent Z's?" Personally, I think that they get lost in the crowd. In my view (old-fashioned by some standards, but I am not required to give it up) the newer cars all look alike. You can tell the difference between "classes" of cars, but within them, to me, they are indistinguishable. What made the S30 desirable to me was in part the fact that there was no way to visually confuse it with anything else, and I found that very appealing. That fact remains to this day.

The first 240Z that I touched I bought. In mid '72 a guy brought his '72 in for service one day where I worked..... by the end of the day, due to some funny circumstances, I owned the car. That was about 35 years ago, and I still remember it as if it was last week (and that's saying something for a 55 year old mind - well, my 55 year old mind anyway). Prior to that experience I turned my nose up at the 240Z.... I was in the foreign car parts business and drove a string of British vehicles, 100-6's, XKE's, 3000's, TR3's etc. God forbid that a Japanese vehicle even enter the ring for a shot at being a contender. But as they say "never say never".....For me it was a mechanical version of 'love at first sight'. As soon as I touched it I liked it. As soon as I drove it, I had to have it. It was a combination of several simple things working in combination: striking appearance, performance, simplicity, and affordability. Odd, that's what I looked for in women, too. Well, I've made big mistakes with women, but the 240Z was the final word when it came to cars. My passion for the '70 ~ 73 Z has not changed. For me, everything that followed somehow betrayed the basic fundamentals that the early Z cars laid as a foundation. Those changes that I did not like were probably driven mostly by two basic needs the decision makers at Nissan felt compelled to satisfy; the need to meet emission regulations, and the need to satisfy the buyer. So call me a stick in the mud, not open to new ideas, etc. Maybe I am, but I'm more than happy with the '72 240Z that I own. To me it is still striking in appearance, simple to maintain, a good performer, and still affordable. I cannot ask for any more to satisfy my simple needs. Two of the few changes that I would make and liked were the introduction of the turbo and the five-speed transmission. If my numbers weren't matching, I'd swap in those two items in a heartbeat. Now, that being said, keep in mind that it's a good thing that we all do not agree on the same things. If we did, the supply of these things would not meet the demands. Therefore, I'm glad that we do not all agree. Nor will I slight anyone for feeling the same way about another version of the vehicle, as it meets their wants just like mine does my needs.

Unfortunately due to safety regulations, emissions standards, etc. for me the ideal car could not be legally produced. My request of Nissan would be to break out the old molds for the 240Z body and put a de-smogged l24 with an option to upgrade to a state-of-the-art power plant. Knowing that that request can't be satisfied, I suggest Nissan work on a design that stands out from the crowd. It's a risk, but it has worked for them before. Even going "retro" to a classic Z-Car appearance would set them apart today. Give up on the aerodynamic drive to make everything resemble an egg. We know an egg is "nature's perfect shape", but cars are of man, not Mother Nature. A portion of the buying public would sacrifice a few MPGs for a real "looker". Life is all about trade-offs anyway, isn't it? (Well, for the common man, anyway.) Thanks for entertaining my long-winded opinion.

[EScanlon]

In brief:

The 350Z is to the 240Z as the "K" cars are to the Barracuda.

E

[veritech-z]

A lot of people seem to think the Z doesn't look like anything on the road except a z, but I have to say, more poeple that see my car ask me if it's a porsche, and generally have never heard of a Datsun...