What is wrong with the 350Z?

[240ZX]

From my personel perspective (What's wrong with the 350Z?)....well, not much if anything but it still looks like a Toad. However, when slightly modified with the right tire/wheel combo and lowered a bit the 350Z does look pretty racey. So, as alot of us have stated from the very begining, the Toad-like look is it's weakness....nothing more! I still like the looks of my S30 way better than the 350Z.

Tom

[LEB]

Larry, did the need to use the underlying platform for other vehicles, including 4 doors, impact your design process? It seems like it would, which might explain why the 350Z doesn't have the long hood, short deck like the 240. Or was there some other reason?

Daniel,

The short answer is yes, all of what you said and more affected the design process.

We typically never got involved with selecting the platforms that we were given. If there was something (for a design reason) that truly interfered with the design intent we would make an effort to get it changed so as to better accommodate the design. This couldn't be a big expensive change like moving all the stuff around to accommodate a longer hood or a short deck. You take what you're given and do the best you can. I feel that it's the difficult conditions that the designer has to work around are what cause good things to happen in design, not the lack of them. Having an unlimited budget and no restrictions doesn't insure good design. Often it's the restrictions that have to be creatively solved, that lead to success.

Larry

[hls30.com]

... Often it's the restrictions that have to be creatively solved, that lead to success.

Larry

Larry,

I agree with that statement completely, but as I said essentially in an earlier post, if my son came out looking more like Rick than me, my friends and I would have wondered if I "contibuted to his development". Any story from my wife would be questionable-the proof is in the results-if you will.

The lack of any characteristics that are not more Audi than S30, shows me there was slight of something!

I can understand that the development changed in the middle, and the assignment of "here it is, deal with it", what I don't understand is why the 350Z wasn't incorporated into the marketing scheeme by giving it a few easily recognizeable S30 ques. It is a case of one hand being completely disconnected from the other-completely contrary to the Demming Management Method. If the marketing people had asked that the quarter windows and emblem placement and shape(purely as an example)the relationship would have been apparent-and Rick would not be in trouble-at least not with meROFL !

Will

[jmark]

The 3 instrument pod in the center dash aimed towards the driver is a S30 que.

[LEB]

Will,

I understand where you're coming from. It's just that the design guys at Nissan were able to see more than a whiff of Z in the car. I can still see it, but it's obviously not the amount that you would have liked. I have more trouble seeing it as an Audi TT copy. Some of the form vocabulary is similar but the Z is a much more emotional statement than the Audi. The Audi (which I like a lot) is almost a product design, one of Germany's best. It was even better in the show car version at Geneva. I don't remember the year, but I'm sure it wasn't overlooked by the Nissan designers.

As for the marketing people, I'm unaware of their involvement in the program. I’m sure they had recommendations, but when the design brief is published it’s hard to deviate too much. The other thing is that designers don’t like to have their stuff tampered with. Change isn’t easy, especially late in the program.

Larry

[240ZMan]

I think this is going to come across as being rather naive, but I'm surprised in this day and age that the designers are working with so little involvement from engineering and marketing. I thought this was a thing of the past.

[LEB]

Good observation, The design studio is made up of three disciplines, designers, engineers and modelers. Both the design and the engineering has to be reflected in the model by the modelers. I won’t go into CAD because I think it’s easier to understand without it.

Outside input can come from anyplace but it usually happens outside of the studio and the information is given to the studio discipline whom it affects most.. Often the marketing folks would be most involved early on. There is a lot of work done to know just who you’re going after with each product. Clinics would also fall into that category.

Design is rather messy but in my experience it never has been done without a lot of outside input. The biggest misconception that I find is that people think it’s a linier process, like baking a cake. Only when the story gets told to the press does it become linier.

Hope this helps.

[hls30.com]

Will,

I understand where you're coming from. It's just that the design guys at Nissan were able to see more than a whiff of Z in the car....I have more trouble seeing it as an Audi TT copy. Some of the form vocabulary is similar but the Z is a much more emotional statement than the Audi. Larry

I am trying very hard not to come to the conclusion that at Nissan design is primarily done for designers and not for people, but when you give me information like that I feel I am pretty effectively limited to that conclusion. I fully agree that I am unskilled in your field, and do not have the form vocabulary, but I thought Nissans design guys were designing the message for those of us that have not been through design school.

I know this isn't the case, but it almost appears that the public isn't supposed to decipher the message-that, or somehow I missed the design sence everyone else has. Obviously, I don't know the code, so I can't see the message.

WIll

[2003z]

I am having a hard time seeing a bumperless 240Z front end resembling the 350Z front end because of the early long hood and later short hood as pointed out by Daddz-any chance of a captured post.

Will

It was a headon view, so the hood length didn't show. It was of designers working on a clay model of the 240, and it had no bumper. Withouth the bumper, head on, the 350 looked similar.

Unfortunately, no still shots.

[LEB]

I am trying very hard not to come to the conclusion that at Nissan design is primarily done for designers and not for people,

Will,

At Nissan design is done to sell product. The designers are not trying to inform people about a message. There isn't a message. They are trying to make the product appeal to the folks that have been selected (by someone else) to buy that particular product. If they can do it the company makes money.

To design for designers is an interesting topic in itself. It wins awards but doesn't necessarily sell product.

It's obvious that the owners of the original Z's weren't included in the market that was selected to the extent that they might have been.

Hope this helps.

Larry

[hls30.com]

Will,

At Nissan design is done to sell product. The designers are not trying to inform people about a message. There isn't a message. They are trying to make the product appeal to the folks that have been selected (by someone else) to buy that particular product. If they can do it the company makes money.

To design for designers is an interesting topic in itself. It wins awards but doesn't necessarily sell product.

It's obvious that the owners of the original Z's weren't included in market that was selected to the extent that they might have been.

Hope this helps.

Larry

Larry ,

I do understand about the goal of a business, and my place (included or excluded) in a target market as a potential customer (tripple major, Finance, Economics and Marketing). The message I was refering to was the design relationship to the 240Z. I do appologize for not making that clear. I do understand what you are saying, I simply don't get the design connections(sans the tripple gages in center of the dash) that are present in the 350Z that relate it to the 240Z.

If it isn't too complicated or time intensive on your part to point them out(or tell me where they are) I would like to know what design elements are shared between a 350Z and a 240Z.

Thanks,

Will

[zedevan]

quick photoshop to an uglily done up 350z but i think you can see how if the proportions were limited by some design concideration how it looks like a 240z, as by editing this photo i've tried to give it 240z proportioins, and even the shape of the rear window. it would of been a good idea to include this shape window to reflect back on the s30 design, but mayb its limited by the way the hatch opens? and it looks like a 300zx so would help tie that into the design also?

here's the link to the orginal image http://www.exvitermini.com/pics/mpglhs.jpg

when the 350z has the fairlady front on it it starts to have the proportions and gnose look